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To: jo kus; HarleyD; kosta50; stripes1776; Forest Keeper; qua; AlbionGirl; Kolokotronis; annalex

"Man has free will, given by God, since we were made in His image."

Then how do you account for the universality of sin, ie.e. "there is none righteous (excepting the Lord Jesus) no not one"? "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". You would think if man had true free will there would be at least one who always made the right choices.

Choices of the will are determined by man's character or they are ethically worthless and are of no moral value. Character is determined by culture, education, parenting, experiences and physical, intellectual and emotional abilities. How then can you say choices are "free" when the are conditioned so?


4,728 posted on 04/17/2006 12:53:22 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". You would think if man had true free will there would be at least one who always made the right choices.

Why? That logic doesn't follow. Even the Old Testament Jews didn't require or expect people to be perfect to be considered righteous in God's eyes. One who walks in faith is a concept found in the Old Testament. There are numerous people who are considered righteous - and I doubt were perfect.

How then can you say choices are "free" when the are conditioned so?

Society doesn't invariably control the individual, no matter how much you believe what the press tells us. Do you think EVERY German during World War 2 hated Jews? Did every single German "follow their indoctrination"? You are basically saying that there is no such thing as an absolute truth in morality. This concept of relativism is firmly refuted by the Church throughout its history.

Regards

4,738 posted on 04/17/2006 5:45:21 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: blue-duncan; jo kus; HarleyD; stripes1776; Forest Keeper; qua; AlbionGirl; Kolokotronis; annalex
Then how do you account for the universality of sin, ie.e. "there is none righteous (excepting the Lord Jesus) no not one"? "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright" (Job 1:1)

Hello, Houston, we have a problem...bleep.

As for your (and Calvinist favorite) verse, +Paul was reminding us that none of us is truly Christ-like but the importance is in how +Paul finished his sentence -- that everyone comes short of the glory of God.

All of us are born mortal and tainted with death. Compared to God we are always a "failure." But some among us are true saints and, within the context and constraints of humanity, some are capable of being righteous, even perfect, as the OT makes it plain.

4,741 posted on 04/17/2006 6:38:52 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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