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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; kosta50; Forest Keeper
Oh no you don't....get back here. :O)

AHH, I'm feeling the tractor beam sucking me back...

I've been reading St. Augustine's "The Problem of Free Choice". I find it an interesting read, quite in line with what Catholics and Orthodox have been saying all along. You might be interested in Book 3, Section 2.4, God's Foreknowledge, and Book 3, Section 4.9 to 8.23, To Foresee Sin is not to cause it.

But you don't really want to argue this forever now, do you? Do you think there is any argument not brought forward yet?

"God foreknows what we shall will in the future, this does not imply that we do not make us of our will. With regard to happiness, you said you do not make yourself happy, as if I denied it. I say that when you will be happy, you will be happy through your will and not against it. Because God foreknows your future happiness, and because nothing can happen otherwise than as He has foreknown - to deny this would be to deny His foreknowledge - it does not follow that we must suppose you will not be happy through your own will. This would be absurd...

The Foreknowledge of God, which is certain even today of your future happiness, does not take away your will to be happy, when you begin to be happy. So too, if your will in the future is sinful, it will not cease to be your will, because God has foreknown what will happen."

I want you to realize how blind you would be if we said: If God has foreknown my future will, because nothing can happen contrary to His foreknowledge, I must necessarily will what He has foreknown. But, if this is necessary, I must admit that I will of necessity, and not through my will. How utterly foolish this would be!"(Augustine, The Problem of Free Choice, Book 3, 3.7)

So says St. Augustine...

Thus, to say that God's foreknowledge = God's causing is to then make God's foreknowledge equally responsible for goodness AND sin. I don't see how one can deny, then, that God would be the cause of sin, which St. Augustine and many others deny emphatically.

But we've already said all of that!

Regards

4,737 posted on 04/17/2006 5:39:49 PM PDT by jo kus (Stand fast in the liberty of Christ...Do not be entangled AGAIN with a yoke of bondage... Gal 5:1b)
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To: jo kus; Kolokotronis; kosta50; Forest Keeper
I've been reading St. Augustine's "The Problem of Free Choice". I find it an interesting read, quite in line with what Catholics and Orthodox have been saying all along.

To say Augustine is in line with Catholic teaching and Catholic teaching is in line with Orthodox is confusing to say the least. You'll find the Orthodox, while respecting Augustine, don't hold much store in his writings. I can appreciate the Orthodox position simply because Augustine's writings are not in line with what they believe. However this poses a more difficult problem for Catholics who supposedly revere Augustine. It would be far more consistent for Catholics simply to say they don't believe Augustine's writings then to pretend he supports Catholicism as it exists today. This would make merging with the Orthodox far easier.

But you don't really want to argue this forever now, do you?

Actually, no. However, this seems to be a thread that I have started to pull that continues to unravel the sweater. God's sovereign will over His creation touches every single issue facing Christianity today. If one does not believe that God is in full control then they really don't believe God can answer prayer, He guides our footsteps, everything that happens in our lives is a blessing from God, He provides for us and sustains us, on and on and on.

What we end up with is man at the center of attention with a God that dotes on him. Man becomes an OK person with a little help-who is free to follow whatever path he chooses. God sits back and occasionally pops His head in when needed. Man's wickedness and God's glorious mercy are both minimized. This is not the view of scriptures - Old or New Testament.

As far as your quote of Augustine in The Problem of Free Choice I would have to review the context of the book. The only thing I can verify is that the book is not a discussion of free choice as it is a problem of evil. Calvinists believe that man has a free will. This will is bound until Christ sets us free. Once freed Christians are capable of exercising our will-for good or for bad. God expects us to exercise this will for good and has given us His Holy Spirit to guide this will. If we refuse to submit to God's guidance then He will chastise us.

I see nothing in Augustine's quote that would contradict what I have stated nor do I see anything that would contradict what Augustine states in A Treatise of Predestination. As Augustine rightfully points out, if man has free will then there is no need to pray for the salvation of others; however how can we have faith if faith has not been bestowed (Chap 15).

4,749 posted on 04/18/2006 6:05:10 AM PDT by HarleyD ("A man's steps are from the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24 (HNV))
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