Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I think I typed nearly identical words to FK on this some 1000 posts ago...:-)
Perhaps it is time to go back to reading John...
Christ is risen! Oh death, where is thy sting???!!!
Regards
That's why I have been telling you all along (with no avail apparently) that God's plan has been accomplished, and all our decisions and lives, past, present and future, incorporated (i.e. integrated) into it.
Excellent post. All of Time is part of God's "now" compressed into one view. I don't know how many times I typed something to that effect on this thread, over a 20 at least...
Christ is risen!!! Oh death, where is thy sting???!!!!
Brother in Christ
Yes, I know jo, that's why everyone is bailing out. Sadly, after 4,600+ posts the divide remains unrbridged. The only god thing from all this is that I will never, ever, have any misconceptions abut Christianity.
I have not only learned a great deal why Protestants are not part of the Church, and never will be, but why, despite their millennial division, the Roman Catholic Orthodox Churches remain One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Blessed Resurrection to both of you. Kosta
"Sacred is that which we hold sacred."
No, sacred is that which God holds sacred. Ask Uzza. (1 Chron. 13:9, 10)
Generally, I think this comment is from man's point of view, because it is man who recognizes God's presence through the Ark or the Eucharist. I do not intend on arguing that God does not hold the Ark as sacred, but it is for man's sake - the Sabbath is sacred and ALSO made for man.
I agree. Considering the diversity of this thread and all we have talked about, I am amazed on how often we stand on the same side of the fence despite our little "spat"! That says a lot, I think, about God's Revelation and how far Protestantism has deviated from it.
Brother in Christ
Amen. I think some of our friends talk a good game of "salvation by mercy," but they don't really mean it. What they seem to be saying is that God gives mercy to those who earn it by faith, by repentance, by partaking of the sacraments, by confession, by piety, by righteousness, etc...
And what they miss is that we are not saved by any of those. We are saved by GRACE. God's grace is what saves us.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" -- Ephesians 2:8
"Saved BY grace THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ." Those prepositions account for everything. SAVED BY GRACE ALONE, which means it is ALL mercy and ONLY mercy. Thankfully, "deserve's got nothing to do with it," or we'd all be toast.
The wonderful thing about the Reformed faith that I just don't see anywhere else is this deep sense of calm and unity in God's purpose and cohesion of the Scriptures. Salvation is complete; past-tense. Christ's work on the cross accomplished what God intended from before the world began -- to atone for the sins of His sheep so that they now stand blameless before God. Every sin we have ever or will ever commit has been paid by the death and resurrection of our perfect Redeemer.
We work out our sanctification with "fear and trembling," as Paul tells us in Philippians 2:12, always aware of the enormity of God. But we are confidently led by the Holy Spirit, because Philippians 2:13 continues by assuring us that "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Thus our salvation is a finished act. Fini.
And with that understanding comes real peace, and a truly healthy outlook on life. Christ assures us that...
"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace" -- Luke 11:21
Christ is our strong man; we are His goods. We love one another, we work to become productive, we help our fellow man, we preach the Gospel, we raise good children, we're grateful for our lives, we delight in our Lord, all because that's what He WANTS us to do. We are His. God wants us secure and confident in the gift He's given us. We are instructed to trust Him. And doubt is the antithesis of trust.
"For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." -- Mark 11:23
Ours is a Gospel of confidence. Confidence in His righteousness, His sacrifice, His obedience, His goodness, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world to accomplish our salvation by His merciful grace alone.
For by thee I have run through a troop: by my God have I leaped over a wall. As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him. For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way perfect. He maketh my feet like hinds' feet: and setteth me upon my high places. He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms. Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great. Thou hast enlarged my steps under me; so that my feet did not slip... The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation." -- 2 Samuel 22:29-37; 47 "For thou art my lamp, O LORD: and the LORD will lighten my darkness.
"Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation." -- Isaiah 12:2
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33
To forgive sin is a part of the Grand commission (John 20) given the Apostles. Indeed, they are forgiven in the name of Jesus and not on the individual whim of the priest, as the absolution formula makes clear.
It is clear form the letter of James that sins were to be confessed to one another, that is, not necessarily to an apostle, although possibly to a bishop. We can deduce from this that the apostles did delegate that power through the Holy Orders to at least some priests. To this day grave sins are only absolved by a bishop, and at any rate the priestly authority comes from his bishop.
As G.K.Chesterton would say, you can get that sense of calm from a bottle of good port, but to each his own.
Thank you so much for the kind words, Dr. E., and for another wonderful article. I read every word of it. I particularly liked Warfield's "tempest in a teapot" treatment of the differences between Calvinism and Lutheranism. I didn't know how that worked. I learned a lot, thanks again. :)
So, then, those who are saved receive injustice -- i.e. they receive God's mercy; they are pardoned. For surely none can be saved by receiving what he or she deserves. There would be no salvation.
Thus, if God is just, as we believe He is, then His justice, by which we are saved, is mercy and not judgment we deserve.
I couldn't agree more, Dr. E! Harley has earned it. :)
I knew that the Orthodox do not believe in original sin. However, I don't understand how God can have foreknowledge of sin, create Adam as He did anyway with the full power to create him otherwise, and then say that God did not ordain it.
Let's say that you create a vase with your own hands. At the bottom of the vase you specifically leave a hole. You couldn't do it by accident, because you are a master of your craft. :) Then you give the vase to me. I inspect it and accept it as a gift. Then I put flowers in it and pour water into it. The result is a mess. Now, I can't blame you for what happened, you were free to make the vase any way you wanted, and I inspected it (obviously poorly :). However, once I discover the problem, I would certainly conclude that you ordained the hole.
I did see them after I posted. You gave a real answer, even if I disagree. :)
I am certain that I read recently that the early Protestant reformers, that would include Luther and Calvin, made the same distinction that Kolokotronis makes between God's foreknowledge and God's will. All the Protestant churches I am familiar with do make this distinction and do not ascribe the creation or ordaining of evil to God.
LOL. Broaden your reading materials; your statement couldn't be farther from the truth.
"Christ is a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation..." -- 1 Peter 2:8-9A
That means that besides Christians there are no compassionate, merciful and charitable people in the world. That is a an unsupportable argument.
You know that when I say "do good" I mean doing good in God's eyes. Of course, "lost" people will sometimes help an old lady across the street. Looking from afar, we would say that is a "good deed". But it means nothing to God, in terms of credit to the "do-gooder". Only a regenerated heart can participate in something that is "good" to God.
[On humans being born dead in original sin:] It is clear that we have some life left in us because only Lucifer's angels are fallen for good and are not redeemable; for us there is hope; for fallen angels there is none. That tells me that the Church teaching is correct: we are wounded but not dead.
What do we have to do with angels? But if you want to make that comparison, then under my view, those whom God passes over are like the fallen angels, lost forever. For the elect, however, there is hope, as you say. Have you ever seen the movie "The Princess Bride"? Let's just say that the elect are, as Billy Crystal says "mostly dead, not all dead". :) God's saving grace of faith is the bellows that brings the elect back to life.
Any good in man is God's doing, even in nonbelievers. The difference is that the nonbelievers may take credit for their good; a true Christian will give all credit to God. At best, we are God's vessels, through which His words are heard, and His love is felt.
I'm almost speechless, Kosta. :) In principle I can agree with almost everything here. But how do you marry this paragraph with your first one? How does God do all the good through us as vessels (I agree!), and yet we have free will? That gives us the power to choose to not be a vessel and thus thwart God's will. That infringes on God's sovereignty.
Obviously, if God wanted perfectly obedient machines, He would have made Adam and Eve as robots. God, however, obviously chose to create man endowed with reason and free will, with foreknowledge of each man's choices.
We can, of course, only speculate why would God do that. Most Christians believe, and have always believed, that God wants us to come to him freely because we know that love which is not free is no love. Arranged marriages are not based on free love. Neither is an arranged covenant that compels.
God did the same thing with angels, bodiless noetic beings. We and the angels have a potential to sin. That sin is based on our common denominator, our intellect, with which we can make (ir)rational choices. Animals are free of culpability of sin because their choices are made by necessity, not by reason.
God did not create robots when He created angels and man.
Let's say that you create a vase with your own hands. At the bottom of the vase you specifically leave a hole... once I discover the problem, I would certainly conclude that you ordained the hole [but not blame you for being free to make it any way you wanted]
This example reflect your unfortunate view of God which is unrecognizable to us Orthodox Christians, Catholics and apparently many of our Protestant brethren. It is a God Who, as Kolokotronis once put it, "set us up." God does not deceive. He gave us everything we need to make paradise on earth. He didn't make secret holes that would surprise us and then say "Oh well, you could have checked better; don't trust me; trust yourself." You make Him sound like a used car dealer! That's sad.
Good can only be good; there are no two "goods;" there is only one Good. God is not good as a virtue; God is good by His essence; it is His nature. He is Goodness itself. So, any good deed is a reflection of God. We Christians know that, which is why we give all credit to God; pagans don't know, so they think they are good. Of course, not everything we see as "good" is good.
What do we have to do with angels? But if you want to make that comparison, then under my view, those whom God passes over are like the fallen angels, lost forever
I have already answered what we have in common with angles in my previous post: free will, potential to sin, reason. Their sin is more grave because they don't sin in flesh (having none), as we do. They sin not because flesh urges them, but because of envy and jealousy and self-love. Those are our (more serious) sins too.
Angels are God's servants and messengers. Unlike angels, man was created in the image and likeness of God, and given dominion to rule over, and to be merciful and just.
Clearly, God wanted to make sure that man does not perish, which is why He decided to redeem us. Fallen angels, who knew God as we don't, have committed irrevocable sin because they sinned in spirit and not in flesh.
How does God do all the good through us as vessels (I agree!), and yet we have free will?
God works in those who humble themselves, who show compassion, who show mercy. Our Divine Liturgy contains beatitudes with "Blessed are the poor in spirit..."
Thomas Merton says that "To say that I am made in the image of God is to say that love is the reason for my existence...Love is my true identity. Selflessness is my true self." That was the reason and the form in which we were made. That is our "natural" state from which we have fallen. Those who are selfless in their hearts, those who are motivated by love, whether they know it or not, are vessels is which God's goodnes is manifested. But God does not compel. He seeks those who are Christ-like by their own will, by their own selflessness, and love for others, to shine through.
We can refuse God's will, of course. We do it every time we sin (for God does not want us to sin). Yet, even you admit, that we sin, even after being "saved," and that we will continue to sin as long as we are alive.
Refusing God's will will only send us deeper into self-love and darkness that will lead away from God and His goodness. God gives us until the last breath to repent and come back to Him.
Wasn't it you who "needed a drink" a few days ago in this discussion?
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