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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; annalex
FK: "I do not think we have the free will to do good, especially as nonbelievers."

That means that besides Christians there are no compassionate, merciful and charitable people in the world. That is a an unsupportable argument.

You know that when I say "do good" I mean doing good in God's eyes. Of course, "lost" people will sometimes help an old lady across the street. Looking from afar, we would say that is a "good deed". But it means nothing to God, in terms of credit to the "do-gooder". Only a regenerated heart can participate in something that is "good" to God.

[On humans being born dead in original sin:] It is clear that we have some life left in us because only Lucifer's angels are fallen for good and are not redeemable; for us there is hope; for fallen angels there is none. That tells me that the Church teaching is correct: we are wounded but not dead.

What do we have to do with angels? But if you want to make that comparison, then under my view, those whom God passes over are like the fallen angels, lost forever. For the elect, however, there is hope, as you say. Have you ever seen the movie "The Princess Bride"? Let's just say that the elect are, as Billy Crystal says "mostly dead, not all dead". :) God's saving grace of faith is the bellows that brings the elect back to life.

Any good in man is God's doing, even in nonbelievers. The difference is that the nonbelievers may take credit for their good; a true Christian will give all credit to God. At best, we are God's vessels, through which His words are heard, and His love is felt.

I'm almost speechless, Kosta. :) In principle I can agree with almost everything here. But how do you marry this paragraph with your first one? How does God do all the good through us as vessels (I agree!), and yet we have free will? That gives us the power to choose to not be a vessel and thus thwart God's will. That infringes on God's sovereignty.

4,637 posted on 04/13/2006 2:33:45 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; stripes1776
You know that when I say "do good" I mean doing good in God's eyes

Good can only be good; there are no two "goods;" there is only one Good. God is not good as a virtue; God is good by His essence; it is His nature. He is Goodness itself. So, any good deed is a reflection of God. We Christians know that, which is why we give all credit to God; pagans don't know, so they think they are good. Of course, not everything we see as "good" is good.

What do we have to do with angels? But if you want to make that comparison, then under my view, those whom God passes over are like the fallen angels, lost forever

I have already answered what we have in common with angles in my previous post: free will, potential to sin, reason. Their sin is more grave because they don't sin in flesh (having none), as we do. They sin not because flesh urges them, but because of envy and jealousy and self-love. Those are our (more serious) sins too.

Angels are God's servants and messengers. Unlike angels, man was created in the image and likeness of God, and given dominion to rule over, and to be merciful and just.

Clearly, God wanted to make sure that man does not perish, which is why He decided to redeem us. Fallen angels, who knew God as we don't, have committed irrevocable sin because they sinned in spirit and not in flesh.

How does God do all the good through us as vessels (I agree!), and yet we have free will?

God works in those who humble themselves, who show compassion, who show mercy. Our Divine Liturgy contains beatitudes with "Blessed are the poor in spirit..."

Thomas Merton says that "To say that I am made in the image of God is to say that love is the reason for my existence...Love is my true identity. Selflessness is my true self." That was the reason and the form in which we were made. That is our "natural" state from which we have fallen. Those who are selfless in their hearts, those who are motivated by love, whether they know it or not, are vessels is which God's goodnes is manifested. But God does not compel. He seeks those who are Christ-like by their own will, by their own selflessness, and love for others, to shine through.

We can refuse God's will, of course. We do it every time we sin (for God does not want us to sin). Yet, even you admit, that we sin, even after being "saved," and that we will continue to sin as long as we are alive.

Refusing God's will will only send us deeper into self-love and darkness that will lead away from God and His goodness. God gives us until the last breath to repent and come back to Him.

4,639 posted on 04/13/2006 8:41:06 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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