Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
And who gets the credit for our fall, FK?
Why does God causing our salvation suggest our mindlessness?
You believe that we are programmed for salvation or perdition from all eterntiy, that whether we are St. John the Baptist or Judas Iscariot we are just tools in his workshop.
Doesn't satan also have a lot to teach us? Doesn't he also draw us to him?
Satan teaches us nothing except to hate God, FK. He doesn't draw us to him. No one wants to be close to him. But, we all follow his deception. Few worship satan. He is not a god, for sure. Evil has no power unless we give in to it. It's that old addage "I am not violent, but I can be driven to violence." Satan knows that very well.
I won't go into your theology, AG, or your newly found salvation in Calvin's man-made "church," but I will remind you, as you triumph in His love for you, that your Calvinsit friends believe that God equally makes others suffer and that there are those who came to the realization that the same loving God made them so they would perish and burn in hell for all eternity.
Harley does not believe in isolated verses, he believes in all of them!
[Kosta to Harley:] "But, let me ask you: if God were to reveal that there is no salvation for us, because mankind has not repeneted and He now decided to cause another great flood, except without Noah, would you still glorify Him?
If that happened, then 'NO', we would not:
Gen. 9:8-11 : 8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."
We can't have God being a liar now, can we? :)
God gives -- if asked. That's why we pray. If we don't get what we ask for it is because the prayer is empty or we pray with an evil heart.
What about the other option that we prayed for something honestly, but God knew it would be bad for us (we didn't), and so it didn't happen? One example would be praying to get a particular job. If God already knows it would be a disaster, He might not give it to us to protect us.
Great question. The logical conclusion of Arminian free will demands that satan be stronger than God.
I'm not retracting any of this. There are scores of examples in scripture of God doing precisely this. You would deny the Great Flood, the destruction of Israel and Sodom, and the demise of King Ahab?
The only thing I would clarify is that God ordained all things but He is not the author of evil. He uses evil for His divine purpose.
And when Dr. Eckleberg says that man's "free will is an oxymoron," she means that we have none, and such a concept is nonsense in Reformed theology.
Dr. E is entirely capable of speaking for herself. However the scriptures clearly state that we are "slaves to sin" or "slaves to righteousness" (Rom 6). There is no middle ground. Dr. E is correct. You cannot be a "slave" to something and have "free will".
Of course it is difficult to preceive. You will not get any argument from me on this. However, this is the ONLY inescapable conclusion that one can draw. I will also add that as logically as this is, in all my 30+ years as a Christian NO ONE ever brought this to my attention. I puzzled all these years over this but there is ONLY ONE solution to this puzzle; the one solution that people do not wish to hear; God ordains the events of man-all men. The only thing I can say is that God's way are not our ways.
This is, BTW, the same identical trait that Augustine saw in his prayer, "Command what you will and give what you command." God commands something to be done and then we must pray that God gives it to us.
All of this seems strange to me and is a mystery. But, if one is honest, this is precisely how God works and operates. I cannot explain it. I simply know this to be since it is entirely consistent with scripture. The many verses that I bring up that people rally against reflect this very nature of God.
And, as far as my theology goes, I only know this, I want to live the years that remain in my life in peace with God, and my fellow man.
The ONLY way one can reconcile these passages is to acknowledge that God ordains things and man carries them out. God ordained Pharaoh's heart was to be hardened even before Moses had headed back to Egypt. Pharaoh unwittingly and "freely" carried out God's command.
If God allows you to sin, God also can allow you to fall away.
I have both God's promises and the evidence of my sanctification.
You have not given me any Scriptural proof that a person's future is secure - that he will abide in Christ in the future. You've only pointed to the elect, which you have given no proof that you are one of them. One cannot know he will be of the elect in five years - as I have sufficiently pointed out. Experience has shown that people fall away, and there is nothing to prevent you from falling away (from our point of view). Scripture over and over talks about perseverance - a warning to the "saved".
Such a person (one who was a devout Christian and then subsequently fell away) would be the same as one who never claimed to be saved in the first place. Lost people do what we would call good deeds. But of course, they are not "good" in God's eyes. So, in the case of either person (one who fell away, and one who never claimed salvation) the good deeds did not come from Christ.
You still don't make the possible connection between this person and yourself! That same person made the exact same claims you are today. And to say that Christ was never there to begin with is baloney:
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:4-6
There are other verses that express Christ's clear concept that man can do NOTHING good without God being present. Thus, that person, during His Christian stint, abided in Christ. This retroactive "never was there to begin with" is totally absurd and contradictory to your claim that you are CURRENTLY saved - because you may later fall away. Then what? You going to go back and say that Christ was never in you? This all means that you don't even know RIGHT NOW if Christ is in you!!!
This shows very little knowledge of the Johannine Corpus, which over and over notes that we can KNOW that God abides in us NOW when we obey the Commandments:
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10
First, you claim that man is totally evil and can do nothing good. Then, you claim that someone who claims do be a Christian, doing good deeds and so forth, did them WITHOUT God! Contradictions abound!
I gave an answer for your tagline. Moses is speaking to other humans, and so it is in human terms
But then I told you that Deut 28-30 is God speaking through Moses, as the first verses of Deut 28 note. So you haven't responded to my tagline sufficiently. "Moses is speaking to other humans? Does that mean the Ten Commandments are also "human terms"?
Listen, brother. We have covered this ground sufficiently. In the very beginning, I stated that I cannot convert people. It is the Holy Spirit. I can provide arguments, but it is God who moves hearts. This conversation is proof that no matter the logic of an argument, no matter how many times it is phrased or pointed out the contradictions of your stance, conversion comes from God. Thus, I confess that on this subject, I have seen that it is pointless to continue pursuing it. For both of our sanities, please don't tell me how you are saved and are of the elect anymore.
Feel free to ask questions on different subjects, but I don't see any point in pursuing this anymore.
Regards
Oh boy. First, why are you speaking for someone else?
Secondly, we of the Apostolic Churches have posted numerous verses that have not been responded to sufficiently. Isn't it quite obvious by now that a person can take a cluster of verses from the Scriptures and make them say practically ANYTHING he wants? Where is the reference point to what the writer INTENDED? For some unknown reason, this concept doesn't register with my Protestant brothers. Doesn't it cause you concern that 5 Baptists come up with 8 different interpretations of the same Scriptures? Why is that? Is this God's intent?
Interpreting Scripture outside of the Church does not bring one closer to God but closer to ONE'S OWN idea of God. So much for "revealed" religion.
Regards
The ONLY way one can reconcile these passages is to acknowledge that God ordains things and man carries them out. God ordained Pharaoh's heart was to be hardened even before Moses had headed back to Egypt. Pharaoh unwittingly and "freely" carried out God's command.
Christians are supposed to interpret the Old Testament with the Jesus Christ in mind. HE turns the shadows of the Old Covenant into clarity. The Jews' view of Scripture was limited on several subjects, among them, "why do men suffer evil?". Job was the exception to the Deuteronomic Theology that man suffered because he sinned and man prospered as a reward. St. Augustine said that no one could determine WHY man suffers or prospers - as God gave both to evil and good men without apparent (to us) reason.
Another point to make that is relevant is that there is no separate word for "suffering" or "evil", as there is in Greek. Thus, the person suffering is not distinguished from the "evil" that is happening. Thus, the Jews had a skewed idea of what God was "causing" or "ordaining". The Old Testament, thus, is not a wise place to look when trying to determine what God's plan is regarding suffering or what God causes.
Here is an example from the NT correcting the OT idea of suffering is a result of sin:
And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. John 9:1-3
What's this all mean? That quoting ONLY OT verses can be fraught with danger on particular subjects. We must look at these Scriptures in the light of Christ, who fulfills the Law and the Prophets. It is through Him that we further understand WHO God is and how He deeply desires a relationship with mankind (rather than the jealous vengeful God sometimes portrayed by the incomplete Jewish mindset of the OT).
Regards
jokus-Oh boy. First, why are you speaking for someone else?
It goes without saying that God's Will is at issue, not our will.
Regards
Glad to have the feedback. Reading as much as possible has given me a somewhat different perspective than I used to have.
It's a grave error to assume a different God resides in the two Testaments. God accomplishes what He "desires" everyday, all day.
The New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament. It is the preface to the work of the Gospel. But God does not contradict Himself.
I was reading John 8 last night -- an amazing declaration by Jesus Christ as to whom He has come to save. Seems Jesus was much more specific that you give Him credit for.
I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." -- John 8:37-59"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
That's pretty strong stuff. Christ is speaking to God-believing Jews who consider themselves the sons of Abraham. Yet Christ is telling them they are the sons of the devil. Why?
Because they could not hear Him.
"My word hath no place in you...He that is of God heareth God's words."
Why could they not hear Him and thus keep His words?
Because they were "not of God."
Christ came to redeem the sheep whom God has given Him, from among Jews and Gentiles, thieves and princes, rich and poor, from all nations and races.
Men should follow Christ's example: all glory to God alone.
If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me"
Salvation is not earned. Salvation is given by the free grace of our merciful God. Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Harley, it is not in itself necessarily incorrect. It is a crude statement that you spin in a way that denies free will, then under pressure you fall back to this rather inobjectionable half truth. The statement leaves out the true mechanism of "ordaining" and "carrying out", which is free will.
This is the precise statement on the origin of evil and how God is involved in it. Note that it deals with all the objections posted here very concisely and definitively.
Whether man has free-will?
Objection 1. It would seem that man has not free-will. For whoever has free-will does what he wills. But man does not what he wills; for it is written (Romans 7:19): "For the good which I will I do not, but the evil which I will not, that I do." Therefore man has not free-will.
Objection 2. Further, whoever has free-will has in his power to will or not to will, to do or not to do. But this is not in man's power: for it is written (Romans 9:16): "It is not of him that willeth"--namely, to will--"nor of him that runneth"--namely, to run. Therefore man has not free-will.
Objection 3. Further, what is "free is cause of itself," as the Philosopher says (Metaph. i, 2). Therefore what is moved by another is not free. But God moves the will, for it is written (Proverbs 21:1): "The heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord; whithersoever He will He shall turn it" and (Philippians 2:13): "It is God Who worketh in you both to will and to accomplish." Therefore man has not free-will.
Objection 4. Further, whoever has free-will is master of his own actions. But man is not master of his own actions: for it is written (Jeremiah 10:23): "The way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk." Therefore man has not free-will.
Objection 5. Further, the Philosopher says (Ethic. iii, 5): "According as each one is, such does the end seem to him." But it is not in our power to be of one quality or another; for this comes to us from nature. Therefore it is natural to us to follow some particular end, and therefore we are not free in so doing.
On the contrary, It is written (Sirach 15:14): "God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel"; and the gloss adds: "That is of his free-will."
I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct. And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals. But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will.
Reply to Objection 1. As we have said above (81, 3, ad 2), the sensitive appetite, though it obeys the reason, yet in a given case can resist by desiring what the reason forbids. This is therefore the good which man does not when he wishes--namely, "not to desire against reason," as Augustine says.
Reply to Objection 2. Those words of the Apostle are not to be taken as though man does not wish or does not run of his free-will, but because the free-will is not sufficient thereto unless it be moved and helped by God.
Reply to Objection 3. Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by his free-will man moves himself to act. But it does not of necessity belong to liberty that what is free should be the first cause of itself, as neither for one thing to be cause of another need it be the first cause. God, therefore, is the first cause, Who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary: but rather is He the cause of this very thing in them; for He operates in each thing according to its own nature.
Reply to Objection 4. "Man's way" is said "not to be his" in the execution of his choice, wherein he may be impeded, whether he will or not. The choice itself, however, is in us, but presupposes the help of God.
Reply to Objection 5. Quality in man is of two kinds: natural and adventitious. Now the natural quality may be in the intellectual part, or in the body and its powers. From the very fact, therefore, that man is such by virtue of a natural quality which is in the intellectual part, he naturally desires his last end, which is happiness. Which desire, indeed, is a natural desire, and is not subject to free-will, as is clear from what we have said above (82, 1,2). But on the part of the body and its powers man may be such by virtue of a natural quality, inasmuch as he is of such a temperament or disposition due to any impression whatever produced by corporeal causes, which cannot affect the intellectual part, since it is not the act of a corporeal organ. And such as a man is by virtue of a corporeal quality, such also does his end seem to him, because from such a disposition a man is inclined to choose or reject something. But these inclinations are subject to the judgment of reason, which the lower appetite obeys, as we have said (81, 3). Wherefore this is in no way prejudicial to free-will.
The adventitious qualities are habits and passions, by virtue of which a man is inclined to one thing rather than to another. And yet even these inclinations are subject to the judgment of reason. Such qualities, too, are subject to reason, as it is in our power either to acquire them, whether by causing them or disposing ourselves to them, or to reject them. And so there is nothing in this that is repugnant to free-will.
Whether God exists?
Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.
[...]
Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.
He's either God, or He's not. He either controls every atom He creates, forging its destiny by His determinant will alone, or He doesn't. In which case, something else does the determining. And that actuality is precluded by the definition of the God found in Scriptures.
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." -- Deuteronomy 32:39
"I frankly confess that, for myself, even if it could be, I should not want 'free-will' to be given me, nor anything to be left in my own hands to enable me to endeavour after salvation; not merely because in face of so many dangers, and adversities, and assaults of devils, I could not stand my ground and hold fast my 'free-will' (for one devil is stronger than all men, and on these terms no man could be saved) ; but because, even were there no dangers, adversities, or devils, I should still be forced to labour with no guarantee of success, and to beat my fists at the air. If I lived and worked to all eternity, my conscience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much it must do to satisfy God, Whatever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt' as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more. The experience of all who seek righteousness by works proves that; and I learned it well enough myself over a period of many years, to my own great hurt. But now that God has taken my salvation out of the control of my own will, and put it under the control of His, and promised to save me, not according to my working or running, but according to His own grace and mercy, I have the comfortable certainty that He is faithful and will not lie to me, and that He is also great and powerful, so that no devils or opposition can break Him or pluck me from Him. `No one,´ He says, `shall pluck them out of my hand, because my Father which gave them me is greater than all´ (John 10.28-29). Thus it is that, if not all, yet some, indeed many, are saved; whereas, by the power of ´free-will´ none at all could be saved, but every one of us would perish.
"Furthermore, I have the comfortable certainty that I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God." -- Martin Luther, "Bondage of the Will" -- (xviii) (783)
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." -- Isaiah 43:10
"Chosen to believe."
Salvation is of the Lord.
May God have mercy on all of us.
I've mentioned a few times already now how much I need the fellowship of my brothers and sisters in Christ, and so I want you to know that I appreciate the connection I have with you, however precariously it flows in this most blessed ethernet. Most especially you, Dr. E.
When I profess to believe in the Doctrine of God's Sovereignty, I profess to believe in the inexorable Sovereignty of God's Good and Perfect Will. That, while according to the thinking therein, as it concerns one's election, I should be assured of my salvation, I cannot say that I know in my heart that I am saved, but I'm not troubled with anxiety about that as all is in God's Blessed Hands.
I live each day with the knowledge that God's ways are not my ways, that I'm not capable of understanding the Glorious Mind of God, and also with the Hope that He grant me that true humility which asserts, without reservation, Thy Will be Done.
I ask Our Good Lord, that if I am destined for Hell, He grant me the Last Favor of Loving Him there too. Of proclaiming Him and His Love, even there and ever more, though my fate be a Promethean one, and the suffering be magnified on account of it.
That, adding Hail Mary's, Novenas, Our Father's will avail me little, if anything at all, as it relates to the interregnum between death and the day when I find if I'm truly one of His Sheep or one of His Goats.
As to the issue of who the God haters are, I think they are those who trifle with God's Commandments, who trifle with His Word. Those who establish what is damnable sin today, only to disestablish it a few days hence, without remorse. Those who terrorize the Children of God with the doctrines of men, with vicious zeal.
While I admit to not really knowing if our free-will has the capacity for goodness, in and of itself, I want to note that the theology that explicates the possibility of such seems peppered with egoism, besotted with the idea that we have the capacity to understand how and why God ordains all things, and prone to implying that God The Father, as presented by the blessed prophets of the Old Testament has been rendered silent, and that Christ, in fulfillment of the Law, rendered Him so.
I appreciate the pings, Dr. E, and hope you continue to include me in them, but I'm not sure how much further I'm going to carry this debate. I'm thinking of Paul's admonishment concerning being full of debate, and thinking it might be a good thing to dutifully heed his blessed advice.
I don't quote Scripture all that often, because I need to Study the Blessed Word a lot more, before I feel comfortable doing so, but I do want to leave you with the following as it faithfully captures my sense of where I am in my walk with God.
"Acquaint now thyself with Him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee." Job 22:21.
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