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"The Protestant Church was created by ordinary men, with big egos, not by the Apostles. They took it upon themselves to denigrate, reject, insult, deny, blaspheme and negate all that the Church from the times of Jesus Christ knew to be the truth, and embraced a book that has more man-made innovations and additions to it than any other symbol of Christian faith. They hold Bible study on Sundays and call it a "church." How could they posisble know the difference between what it means to venerate a saint and what to worship God? Obviously, some worship Gof the Father through Jesus Christ, as the author fothe article said. Somebody please turn on the light!"--All this and I'm only supposed to be concerned about comments regarding "heresy"? Is this a defense of iconoclism or a temper tantrum directed toward Protestants? What it isn't is a "constructive" discussion and it typifies much of what these threads devolve into. It is insulting and intended to be so. It is not constructive or educational, and it does absolutely nothing to encourage unity between Christians or encourage others to explore Christianity. It is, exactly as LibreOuMort pointed out, exactly where these threads end up. In the gutter."

Oh, Rokke its apparent you want me to respond to this, and publicly as that is the way you posted it. I'd prefer not to, but I will.

What Kosta has stated is an opinion held by, I suspect, the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs, clergymen (and lay people too who have an opinion or have thought about the matter). While we in the "particular churches" which make up The Church do not, at least anymore, view each other as heretics but rather as being in schism, there is little doubt but that other than some Lutheran groups and some Anglican groups, many Protestant beliefs and practices fit squarely within any definition of heresy which the Church employs. That's just a fact, Rokke, as uncomfortable and off putting as that may be.

It is off putting because it challenges a fundamental precept of Protestantism which is what we view as the odd concept of The Church being a communion of all professed Christians, no matter what their beliefs on the doctrinal or ecclesiastical hallmarks of The Church. This, to us, strange theological principle leads to what I see has come to be called "open communion", where, for example, I, as an Orthodox Christian, am welcomed "into communion" with, say Methodists or Episcopalians or Unitarians or Baptists when in fact my beliefs don't even come close to their beliefs. To pretend otherwise while inviting me to partake of their Eucharist or memorial cup or whatever is a fraud, Rokke, a fraud going to the very essence of our beings. Its lying to God, Rokke. To groups which hold this communion of all Christians theology, I suspect it is a blow at the very heart of their worldview to be called a heretic, or to have their beliefs called into question and I don't doubt for a minute that it doesn't lead to an immediate rush to be chrismated in the Latin, Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches. It may seem "gutter" like to non-Christians. That's unfortunate. I doubt the pagans and heretics of the Patristic Age were delighted by the fulminations of the Fathers either. But they were singularly effective at evangelization, Rokke, with all their insistence on Orthodox Christianity. That original form of Orthodox Catholicism exists today in Holy Orthodoxy...completely unchanged for almost 2000 years, the past 1400 years of which large portions of The Church surviving and maintaining Orthodox Christianity under a monstrous Mohammedan oppression. In the West, despite the convulsions of the Reformation, the Latin Church has continued to grow across the globe with, until about 40 years ago, a canonical and dogmatic rigidity and absolutism which made Orthodoxy look like a tea party.

You lamented that Kosta observed that Protestantism takes a minimalist approach to theosis. As an Orthodox Christian, I have to agree. I don't know what else to call it. Some Protestants believe that once one "accepts Christ as his personal Lord and Savior", the ticket is punched and no matter what you do, you're "in". Others make a career of defining their faith by making sure everyone knows they're not "Catholics" or "Papists". I can only imagine what they'd say about Orthodoxy if they knew anything about it. No confession for the Protestants, no confession before another human being. Repent, yes, but by all means retain your pride; you don't need to give that up. Make a big deal out of "salvation by faith" alone, then accuse The Church of preaching salvation by works. What a great way to avoid the discomfort and inconvenience of, say, serious fasting or any other practice which has the effect of leading us to die to the self and become open to the fire of the Holy Spirit. What a wonderful theology to have to justify, "God helps them what helps themselves." and then walk past a beggar, or snicker at the struggles of a person with mental retardation who perhaps breaks some eggs he's trying to bag at your local grocery store.

Can it be denied that Protestantism was created by "ordinary men" who got upset at what the Latin Church was doing? I don't see how. I would be far more open to complaints about Kosta's comments if I believed that the Reformers really were trying to cleanse the Latin Church of various medieval accretions and abuses. But I don't believe that at all, Rokke. I don't believe it because when those presented their program to Pat. Jeremias II of Constantinople and, acknowledging that certain practices attributed to Rome were indeed worthy of reform, he pointed out that they were otherwise denying basic tenets of the Faith to which the Church had held fast for 1500 years, they arrogantly scorned the very man they had looked to for validation and respectability. They hadn't gone to him to learn the Faith. They went to him expecting that because the Orthodox Church and Rome were in schism, he'd side with them and tell them what they wanted to hear! He didn't, and rightly so.

So you say that what Kosta said doesn't foster unity. The only unity worth anything is a unity in Truth. Time and again on these threads, as I said earlier, difficult discussions with Protestants have caused me to look deeper into my own beliefs, sending me back to the bible and what the Fathers taught about various passages. That has been an unalloyed good thing for my theosis. It has been a good thing for some of my contestants also; they now get to lump us Orthodox in with the Papists and don't have to be content with assuming we're all Russians and calling us communist stooges.

Bottom line, Rokke, Protestantism in this country, save in a precious few areas (much of orthodox Anglicanism, the LCMS and the Wisconsin Lutheran Synod) is riddled with just about every brand of heresy known to the ancient Christian world, not the least being Sebellianism, which is what started Kosta off in the first place.
Would I have responded the way Kosta did? Probably not, but that may mean that Kosta is a better Orthodox Christian than I am, or put a better way, that the courage of his Orthodox convictions is striner than mine. Kosta and I have responded to each other in almost exactly the way you complain of (as have other orthodox and Latins on these threads) and we're both Orthodox, quite serious about it and ethnically about as close as two can be.

Outstanding post. There is no greater service we can give to people we love than to point out their heresies for them.

Another point. When things are discussed with theological rigor, everybody wins. We know unity will come in the end, because that is what Christ promised. Our job is not to pretend that we are united by diluting our own faith but by strengthening our faith in dispute. The last thing Christ wouldl like to see when He returns is some kind of global Potemkin village in place of His Church.

Interesting comments Kolokotronis. And they remind me of a comment made by another person who posts frequently on these threads. He commented recently that he didn't like to dig too deep into some subjects because he didn't want to damage anyone's faith. The interesting thing was, the only subjects he didn't want to dig too deep in were subjects involving his own church (the Catholic church). Instead, he believed it far more constructive to explain the failings of Protestantism. "I know my Church is right (it told me it was) so let me tell you what is wrong with yours." A long time ago you and I corresponded very regularly about the Orthodox church. I think you will agree that our discussions were constructive and useful. But I'm sure it won't surprise you to know that despite my very sincere study of the Orthodox church, I have no more desire to convert to the Orthodox faith than I do the Mormon faith (ok, maybe a little). As part of the continuing growth of my faith I've found such personal study of other faiths very interesting. But when I study another faith, my intent isn't to find out where they went wrong (and they all have in one respect or another) but what they get right. My faith in God is so deep and so real that there is nothing I could find out about Catholicism, or Orthodoxy or Protestantism, or even Judiasm that could shake it. It is a faith that would continue to exist if every church shut its doors tomorrow. The simple fact is, you could tell me Martin Luther was a cross dressing child molester, and it wouldn't bother me any more than hearing that the last 20 Popes slept with sheep. I read from Catholics and the Orthodox that Protestantism is founded on heresy spun by the spawn of Satan himself, and then click on the next thread and read Protestants saying exactly the same things about Catholics and the Orthodox. Who is right? Who cares. My faith rests in God, not man. That, apparently is a foreign concept to Catholics and Orthodox, but guess what....I don't care.

My whole point is that while you might argue that these threads are "constructive" the fact that the religion threads earned their own moderator indicates there is a lot more anger being shared than knowledge. They often resemble threads from DU than threads from honest Christians seeking fellowship and growth. That is a gross embarrassment (or at least it should be) to any Christian interested in spreading the good news of the Gospel of Christ. And this thread is just one more that joins the trash heap of religious bickering. How constructive.

I suppose I should apologize to our Protestant friends for. having insulted them. I should know that by keeping my mouth shut we can realize this long-sought-after "unity" (of silence). They should, of course, be free to call the practices of the Apostolic Church "idolatry" (VERY BAD, as HarleyD says of our "heresy" -- such refined Calvinism, I love it!). For, the Apostolic Church, as far as the Protestants are concerned, is not a church at all -- what "church" can break God's Commandments and be a Church?!? The world waited 1,500 years in complete heresy and apostasy, from the blessed Apostles onward, until a few good men with a lot of guts established the (real) church, which they call "reformed."

It is actually unbelievable that they are so chartable to even speak to us directly or in writing. We are after all "idolaters." But they want us to be saved too, which is why they talk to us at all.

the Latin Church has continued to grow across the globe with, until about 40 years ago, a canonical and dogmatic rigidity and absolutism which made Orthodoxy look like a tea party.

you are so right -- Vatican II does seem like too much in retrospect

Wow Kolo! Tell us how you really feel! /Joke

You make some good points. There is much that unites us, the Trinity, Christologically (at least that what is taught in my synod), basic morality at times, etc. But there are large gaps in places, and places where we are at odds. For instance the place Tradition holds, eccelisology, use of Icons in worship (which most non Catholic or Orthodox don't have), etc.

I belong to the LCMS, a synod of the Lutheran church that was started around 1840 in the US as a result of the massive influx of German immigrants. We don't claim to be able to trace ourselves back to the Apostolic times, we honestly have trouble going more than a generation or two after the 30 years war (as I had commented before). And in reality the LCMS will probably not last another 50 years as a corporate synod. I know the problems that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have with me, and many RCC and EO people here know my problems with their respective churches. One thing I like about this place is the opportunity to LEARN about those things. Heck, there are issues that concern me about the direction of the LCMS, which because of talking with others here I have realized are much more common than I had hoped.

I had never ran into a Eastern Orthodox (not that many where I grew up), and to be honest never really thought much about it. Roman Catholics were pretty common, but after centuries of bashing each other, neither side had any interest in communicating to each other.

What I have learned is that many of us are closer in theology than I had ever thought. For instance, I now have a new appreciation of Eastern Orthodoxy, and can see what the letter was sent to Constaninoble in the first place. I can also understand why it was rejected.

Bottom line, Rokke, Protestantism in this country, save in a precious few areas (much of orthodox Anglicanism, the LCMS and the Wisconsin Lutheran Synod) is riddled with just about every brand of heresy known to the ancient Christian world, not the least being Sebellianism, which is what started Kosta off in the first place.

To be perfectly honest, most Christians in the US probably fall into Sabellianism. It is as Harold Bloom once said "One of the easiest trinitarian errors to make if you don't think about things that deeply." Many Roman Catholics that I have met recently also tend to adoptionism, and few Baptists into tri theism. What we have from top on down is a basic lack of comprehension of what Christian theology is. So having Kosta call us all "heretics", well in his view we are. That is because we don't believe or understand everything in the same way.

How much separates us? A lot and a little. You are right in saying that much of the mainline Protestant churches in this country are sadly lacking. Much of that is do to having a theology a mile wide and an inch deep. No one really wants to dive to deeply into certain areas, as it will anger and confuse the congregation (and cut down on collections). What is interesting is that those of us who have tried to think deeply about it, drift toward the same place. At times it really makes me wonder if all the schism and separations have more to do with politics than theology.

Sorry for the rant.