The History of the Reformation…We Are all Beggars…(Part 12)

Arlington Presbyterian Church ^ | January 16, 2005 | Tom Browning

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Since I can't improve upon RnMom's excellent response, I'll instead return your "Merry Christmas" and add we're happy you made it safely through the deluge.

"Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast." -- Psalm 57:1

[annalex]

Thank you, and blessings of Advent season to you. It is amazing how the theology of faith alone does not cancel out the genuine desire to work on our faith even in those who hold that theology dogmatically.

[annalex]

I am saying that the written word of God needs to be interpreted in the light of the sacred tradition transmitted by the apostolic Church; if it is read independently or, worse, in opposition to the Church then such reading will lead to harmful results. One example is Luther. Of course he has "read" the gospels. But his "reading" was not profitable and his theories betray no familiarity with the passages I enumerated in #20. So, in short and for greater dramatic effect, I say

Luther did not read the gospels.

[annalex]

The response in #34 was unscriptural causistry.

even Mary could do nothing pleasing to God

The scripture clearly shows that Mary hesitates when she hears the announcement and argues back to the angel. Then she says, let it be onto me. Moreover, she continues to ponder the meaning of the annunciation even after Christ is born. Luke clearly shows that it is Mary's will that struggles to understand and wilfully complies, even before understanding, with the will of God. Mary did something pleasing to God by her own will.

Now it is true that God gave is that will. He gave a will to Cain and to Abel. The will of Abel pleased God. The will of Cain did not. Did God, in Cain, decide to displease Himself? No, Cain had free will. But if so, Abel has free will also.

Calvinism is a harmful card trick that, with its insistance on erasing the free will, harms the understanding of the scripture.

[RnMomof7]

I am saying that the written word of God needs to be interpreted in the light of the sacred tradition transmitted by the apostolic Church; if it is read independently or, worse, in opposition to the Church then such reading will lead to harmful results.

And you know that HOW?

Mom raises her hand and waves for attention, I know , I know ...

BY FAITH ALONE

You only "believe " that ON FAITH cause that is what your church tells you to believe.

That is NO WHERE taught by Christ or the apostles. The jews had their "tradition " and their "priests" and were as blind spiritually as bats.

What did Jesus say of those "leaders"

13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'

17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that *sanctifies the gold?

18 And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'

19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?

20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.

21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who *dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and *self-indulgence.

26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'

31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt.

33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,

35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

One example is Luther. Of course he has "read" the gospels. But his "reading" was not profitable and his theories betray no familiarity with the passages I enumerated in #20. So, in short and for greater dramatic effect, I say

I have presented you with much scripture that you seem bind to

Mar 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

One more time

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Now from your POPE

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

..You cling to your tradition and your works and on that day you will stand before the judge of men who will judge ever single act and work you have ever done.

You need to quake with fear if you cling to your own righteousness to be saved.

Rom 3:10 — As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen, Mom. It's so much simpler than some would have it.

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:4-7

We have been saved by grace through faith, our redemption accomplished once by His sacrifice on the cross alone, the only offering worth the error.

Or else it is not mercy, but payment for wages earned.

[annalex]

Your understanding of the gospel, for example, have definitely been harmed by "faith alone" superstition. Look at you: you just posted a hundred lines of scripture that bear no relation to the issue, but you cannot demonstrate that you understand Luke 17 or Luke 18 or Matthew 25. Nor can Luther.

[RnMomof7]

Your understanding of the gospel, for example, have definitely been harmed by "faith alone" superstition. Look at you: you just posted a hundred lines of scripture that bear no relation to the issue, but you cannot demonstrate that you understand Luke 17 or Luke 18 or Matthew 25. Nor can Luther.

A casual reader will see that you have taken ONE scripture and used that as a proof text for salvation by works, when the scripture shows that it is God that gives faith, it is God that causes it to increase and it is the faith , not the self efforts of men that save

Have you figured out the gospel yet?

Would you define thew words grace and mercy for me if "Gospel" is too hard?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Note that the faith is likened to a tiny, yet miraculously powerful seed (is it why faith is "planted?). What do we do with seeds? -- We grow them.

The point of the analogy is not that we plant and grow the seed, but that God plants and grows the seed.

We grow them. That demands work, and in fact, unceasing work.

All good works are of and by the Holy Ghost, working Christ's righteousness in us. We are only able to perform anything God-pleasing after He has regenerated us through the work of the Holy Ghost.

"For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates." -- 2 Corinthians 13:4-6

[annalex]

Several parables and the Sermon on the Mount are hardly "one" scripture. If you take instruction on Christian zoeology out of the Gospel of Matthew in particular you will have very little left. Besides, since the scripture is inerrant, we should not disregard any scripture, even if not repeated elsewhere.

But, you are right in the sense that I proof doctrine by scripture, rather than by Luther, Spurgeon, or what have you. This is how my Church teaches us to handle doctrine.

You are a delight to talk to, I'll be sure to discuss gospel, grace and mercy some time with you as well.

[annalex]

God plants the seed, and we grow it, with His help, of course. Read the gospels. Specifically, there are some I mentioned in my #20. Luke 17:6-10 addresses the issue of who is working and who is resting.

We are only able to perform anything God-pleasing after He has regenerated us through the work of the Holy Ghost.

I thought Annunciation preceded the Conception; what does your gospel say?

[HarleyD]

"The point of the analogy is not that we plant and grow the seed, but that God plants and grows the seed."

And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows-how, he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself first the blade, then the head,..." Mark 4:26-28

As you point out, the seed takes affect only on the "good soil". One plants. Another waters. But God gives the growth.

[annalex]

But this one says that man plants it. Also, is soil God? The natural reading of the sower metaphor is that tradition is soil.

[RnMomof7]

You are a delight to talk to, I'll be sure to discuss gospel, grace and mercy some time with you as well.

This concerns me as you can not discuss the gospel with me because not only do you not know what it is, and worse you have shown no interest in finding out what it is. Now you are unable to look at grace or mercy.

[annalex]

I will, I promise. At this point the topic is, did Luther understand the passages I pointed out in the written Gospels? I showed you that he most likely ignored them, and fifty posts down no one can explain how he could possibly interpret them and still stick to his theories about works. Sure, you and others explained what Protestants think about the relationship between faith, grace, and work, and you posted plenty of scripture that I have no quarrel with, but there was not a single comment addressing specifically the gospel passages I listed in #20 from the Protestant perspective. This is why at this point I would perfer not to change the topic to other subjects that you brought up.

[RnMomof7]

God plants the seed, and we grow it, with His help, of course. Read the gospels. Specifically, there are some I mentioned in my #20. Luke 17:6-10 addresses the issue of who is working and who is resting.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Who is doing the work ?

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What is grace? What is mercy? What is works? How does one grow his own faith ? Like Dorothy does one click the magic red shoes together and say "I want to go home" "I want to go home"

Faith is grown in men by seeing God work

Faith is therefore that confidence or trust in God and Christ, regarding things promised or things not seen (read Hebrews 11)

So God MUST act if men are to have faith increase.

As you click your heels together saying "I want to go to heaven . I want to go to heaven" Remember if you trust in Christ alone in faith, you will not need to be clicking your heels together, you will have confidence in His promises.

Do you have confidence that when you stand before Christ He will welcome you into His kingdom? Or do you only have a hope ? How great is your faith?

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I have faith I am a child of God and co heir with Christ. Do you?

[suzyjaruki]

Do you suppose Luther read it? Let's ask Luther, here ya go

[annalex]

The gospels passages I showed you in #20 explain that faith is grown by obedience and work.

The quotes you give me form St. Paul say that works must be preceded by faith, that they are enabled by grace, and that one should not boast about works.

Are you contradicting me or are you agreeing with me?

Where is Luther treating Luke 17, 18, or Matthew 25 intelligibly?

[annalex]

Where is Luther treating Luke 17, 18, or Matthew 25 intelligibly?

I am familiar with Luther's overall theories, but I am interested in the exegesis on these passages specifically, because I am getting more and more convinced that he did not read them.

[RnMomof7]

But this one says that man plants it. Also, is soil God? The natural reading of the sower metaphor is that tradition is soil.

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

That seed is planted by the preaching of the gospel

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

God ordained that men should deliver the means of salvation the word of God that brings faith. What an honor to be a co worker with God. That was recognized by Paul

1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

1Cr 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.

Paul knew to whom the glory goes.

The seed did not plant itself or water itself or grow due to its own efforts, but all of those things occurred because God ordained them . They are all a work of God and his grace .