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To: PetroniusMaximus
Are you looking for more proof that all have sinned? You certainly should, for no major doctrine should ever hang o­n o­ne verse. Here are some more...

Nice list of out of context verses, but none of them addresses my earlier point that even though these figurative generalizations don't explicitly exempt Mary, they don't exempt Christ either. My point isn't of course that Christ sinned, we both agree that he didn't, but that the over generalizations you used to claim Mary sinned is invalid because Christ wasn't exempted either.

Why does Paul specify "from Adam to Moses"? Because those people were living in a time when there was no direct command from God which, if they disobeyed, would result in their death. Adam was told "Thou shalt not" and he disobeyed and died. But not until Moses do we hear another "Thou shalt not".

Again, you are missing the context of Paul's words you quoted in Romans 3:10-23. Justification is about more than merely the old covenant's focus on sin. Everyone, including Mary, needs Christ's sacrifice for salvation regardless of their personal sin.

It's not that the people between Adam and Moses did no sin, but that even though they did not sin in the same manner, pattern or likeness as Adam by disobeying a direct command, they still died anyway - because ALL have sinned.

Again, more legalistic over focus on sin. The Council of Trent formally explained this error almost 500 years ago.

Oh! but he did exclude Jesus!!! As did John, Peter and even Jesus himself. There are at least five explicit references to Jesus' sinlessness in the Bible. Regarding Mary there are none.

Although these verses do confirm that Christ did not sin, that isn't at issue because again, neither of us believes that he did. The false claim that Mary had to have sinned because your earlier verses overgeneralized that everyone sinned is invalidated because of they also didn't exempt Christ. The fact that a Sola Scriptura viewpoint can't reconcile these seemingly contradictory but totally out-of-context verses is your problem, not mine, and can't be used to rationally prove that Mary ever sinned.

174 posted on 12/10/2005 10:43:15 AM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: Ronaldus Magnus

"Nice list of out of context verses, but none of them addresses my earlier point that even though these figurative generalizations don't explicitly exempt Mary, they don't exempt Christ either."

Highly dishonest. You know very well that the Bible, being the product of the Holy Spirit, speaks with a unified voice. If the Bible clearly teaches that "all have sinned" AND that "Jesus did not sin" then everyone but Jesus has sinned.



" Again, more legalistic over focus on sin."

The passage is TALKING ABOUT SIN.



"The false claim that Mary had to have sinned because your earlier verses overgeneralized that everyone sinned is invalidated because of they also didn't exempt Christ."

The Biblical witness is that all have sinned and Christ is the only excpetion.


"and can't be used to rationally prove that Mary ever sinned."

If it was important that Mary had not sinned, the Biblical authors would have gone out of their way to note that she was an exception. They did so numerous times with Jesus. The NEVER did so for Mary.


Making Mary sinless, a mediatrix, immaculately concieved, the channel of all grace, etc. is a direct attack on the uniqueness of Jesus Christ.


178 posted on 12/10/2005 11:40:34 AM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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