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To: Ronaldus Magnus; Campion

" But wait, I thought it just said that no o­ne was just?"

Are you looking for more proof that all have sinned? You certainly should, for no major doctrine should ever hang o­n o­ne verse. Here are some more...

"...may You hear their prayer and petition in heaven and uphold their cause. When they sin against You- for there is no o­ne who does not sin." (excluding Mary?) 1 Kings 8

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:22

"If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (would  Mary have been deceived if she said she had no sin?) 1 John 1

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.(Mary was o­ne of his people also) Matthew 1:21


"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. Matthew 18:11

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (and, of course, Jesus was God) Luke 18:19

"But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. (Did Mary not need a physician?) Matthew 9:12

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Romans 3:9

"Wherefore, as by o­ne man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  1 Corinthians 15:3

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
(Did he come to save Mary?) 1 Timothy 1:15




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 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the o­ne who was to come.

And who are these people who did not sin?

Why does Paul specify "from Adam to Moses"? Because those people were living in a time when there was no direct command from God which, if they disobeyed, would result in their death. Adam was told "Thou shalt not" and he disobeyed and died. But not until Moses do we hear another "Thou shalt not".

It's not that the people between Adam and Moses did no sin, but that even though they did not sin in the same manner, pattern or likeness as Adam by disobeying a direct command, they still died anyway - because ALL have sinned.



***************

Even though Paul doesn't specifically exclude Mary from the generalization he used to make this point, he didn't specifically exclude Christ, either.

Oh! but he did exclude Jesus!!! As did John, Peter and even Jesus himself.
There are at least five explicit references to Jesus' sinlessness in the Bible. Regarding Mary there are none.

Paul said...
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

Peter said...
"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1 Peter 2:22

John said...
"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 3:5

Paul said...
"We do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but we have o­ne who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin Hebrews 4:15-16

Jesus said...
"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" John 8:46


168 posted on 12/09/2005 8:36:05 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Are you looking for more proof that all have sinned? You certainly should, for no major doctrine should ever hang o­n o­ne verse. Here are some more...

Nice list of out of context verses, but none of them addresses my earlier point that even though these figurative generalizations don't explicitly exempt Mary, they don't exempt Christ either. My point isn't of course that Christ sinned, we both agree that he didn't, but that the over generalizations you used to claim Mary sinned is invalid because Christ wasn't exempted either.

Why does Paul specify "from Adam to Moses"? Because those people were living in a time when there was no direct command from God which, if they disobeyed, would result in their death. Adam was told "Thou shalt not" and he disobeyed and died. But not until Moses do we hear another "Thou shalt not".

Again, you are missing the context of Paul's words you quoted in Romans 3:10-23. Justification is about more than merely the old covenant's focus on sin. Everyone, including Mary, needs Christ's sacrifice for salvation regardless of their personal sin.

It's not that the people between Adam and Moses did no sin, but that even though they did not sin in the same manner, pattern or likeness as Adam by disobeying a direct command, they still died anyway - because ALL have sinned.

Again, more legalistic over focus on sin. The Council of Trent formally explained this error almost 500 years ago.

Oh! but he did exclude Jesus!!! As did John, Peter and even Jesus himself. There are at least five explicit references to Jesus' sinlessness in the Bible. Regarding Mary there are none.

Although these verses do confirm that Christ did not sin, that isn't at issue because again, neither of us believes that he did. The false claim that Mary had to have sinned because your earlier verses overgeneralized that everyone sinned is invalidated because of they also didn't exempt Christ. The fact that a Sola Scriptura viewpoint can't reconcile these seemingly contradictory but totally out-of-context verses is your problem, not mine, and can't be used to rationally prove that Mary ever sinned.

174 posted on 12/10/2005 10:43:15 AM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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