Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope

Zenit News Agency ^ | November 30, 2005

[NYer]

Refers to St. Augustine's Commentary on Psalm 136(137)

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.

The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).

On a rainy morning in Rome, the Holy Father's meditation, addressed to more than 23,000 people gathered in St. Peter's Square, concentrated on the suffering of the Jewish people in the Babylonian exile, expressed dramatically in Psalm 136(137).

The Pontiff referred to Augustine's commentary on this composition of the Jewish people, noting that this "Father of the Church introduces a surprising element of great timeliness."

Augustine "knows that also among the inhabitants of Babylon there are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire," Benedict XVI stated.

"They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption," explained the Pope, quoting Augustine.

This spark

"And he says that among the persecutors, among the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live," the Holy Father continued.

"With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ," he clarified.

Continuing with his quotes from Augustine, the Pope added that "God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, on the condition, however, that, living in Babylon, they do not seek pride, outdated pomp and arrogance."

The Bishop of Rome concluded by inviting those present to pray to the Lord "that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world."

[jo kus]

You realize that you just gave a good explanation of the "invisible Church"? We are united by Baptism, if not in organization

There really is no "invisible Church" per sec. There is one Church, the Catholic Church, and all men are either members of it to some degree or not. Technically, there is no "Protestant Church". Those who follow the ways of Christ, but not baptized, are in some respects, part of the Catholic Church invisibly or to an unknown degree - but they are tied to a visible entity, even if unknowingly.

Those Protestants who have been baptized are to a larger degree (then say, a Muslim) in union with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church - IF they do not reject His Church KNOWINGLY. For example, they read our Scriptures, believe many of our teachings (such as the Holy Spirit is God), they often practice our devotions, and so forth. In a sense, unknown to all but God, these persons are members of the visible Catholic Church. What we don't know is to what degree. We do know that only those who are full members of the Catholic Church ONLY possess the FULLNESS of the faith given by Christ. And God wills the salvation of everyone THROUGH the knowledge of the truth (and since the pillar and foundation IS the Church, so it is the vehicle for man coming to this full knowledge)

This does not mean that Protestants don't have "enough" of the faith. Only God can judge the complicity of their "heresy" or "disunity". "One cannot charge with sin of separation those who at present are born into these (Protestant) communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ" (Pope John Paul 2 in a homily at the Lutheran Church at Rome commemorating the 500th anniversary of the birth of Martin Luther). The Decree on Ecumenism points out that "these Churches (Orthodox) and ecclesial communities (Protestant), although defective (lacking fullness), have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of slavation, but that they derive their efficacy from the Catholic Church (UR 3).

While it is true that the followers of other religions CAN receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking, they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, fully within the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation. Subjectively, of course, some Catholics have shown they do not desire the gift given to them, while other Protestants have made due with the limited gifts given to them. Thus, it is appropriate for Catholics to continue to evangelize, despite what some believe that the ecumenical movement does.

We are united by Baptism, but not by faith, and not by the one Loaf. Separation still exists, which is why we believe it is our duty to bring the full Gospel to our separated brothers - so that they may have the full knowledge of the Truth.

Brother in Christ

[jo kus]

Our sins were forgiven on Calvary. Christ paid for our redemption with His blood. No further "purification" is necessary, a notion which actually seems to demean Christ's sacrifice by implying it was incomplete.

...and thus, hell is empty, according to this line of thought. Christ's teachings does not give this impression.

Regards

[magisterium]

If anything, I would say that the writings of Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI are MUCH more readable and down-to-earth than those of John Paul II. I flatter myself that I can read fairly well, yet I often had to really *slog* through the writings of JPII, going over the same sections several times to make sure of the sense.

This is hardly a problem with BXVI. His writings in German are crystal clear, and lend themselves well to English translations that are conprehensible to most reasonably versed laymen. He could stand a little more "popularization" in his writings for the laity, but I'll be thankful for the current clarity even if it doesn't move an inch closer to us among the Unwashed! ;-)

[jo kus]

The point I was making about the law is as you've pointed out....those who trust in their legal righteousness for their salvation. Those who would be saved must "believe God and have their faith credited to them as righteousness..."

We probably do not agree with the definition of "credited" (we believe we ACTUALLY become righteous, in God's eyes), but we agree with the gist of your Galatians post. See, brother, you are more Catholic than you thought!

Their acceptance will always be based on "by grace they have been saved through faith." Their identity afterwards will be known by "show me your faith by your works."

All, faith and works, equally coming from God.

Regards

[magisterium]

On the contrary, your notion of Calvary and forgiveness comes perilously close to saying we have permission to sin. Luther, right out of the box, said as much to Melanchthon. If, on the one hand, we all agree that Christ died on the cross for our sins, how can anyone dare say, on the other hand, that nothing is required on our part in avoidance of sin after initial repentance? yet that is what your position states. Nothing can be done anyway, since nothing, even after justification, can be merited. We continue to sin, to fall short of God's grace, even after justification. But nothing we can do matters. Therefore, our sins, post conversion, don't *really* matter, since they are "covered" by the blood of Christ. How is this not a de facto permission to sin? How does this not make a de facto mockery of the sacrifice of Calvary?

[jo kus]

Please tell me... what 'purifies' one in purgatory???

Our desire for God. We cannot enter into His almighty presence with fleshy attachments and evil desires, now, can we? Are we to believe that our imperfectly holy selves, with our propensity to sin and desire something other than God, will be united WITH God for eternity? That same person? No. Our spiritual soul, our will and intellect, must be cleansed of the desires of the flesh. We are given opporunities DAILY to do this here on earth. But God, in His great mercy, allows us to continue our purification process. When we see the goal more clearly, and then it is removed from us (by entering Purgatory), our desire will be literally painful. When one is hungry, and food is placed before us, and then taken away, our desire for that food grows all the more. In the same way, our spiritual sense will that much more pine for our God, and our will begans to become purified of other desires - for things for ourselves, for envy, for lust, for pride. All that will remain is desire for God out of love for Him. THEN, we will be holy enough to enter into His presence for eternity.

The concept of Purgatory is implied in Scriptures and practiced by the early Christians. Prayer for the dead, for example, preceded Christianity and continued (to this day). What is the sense of praying for the dead if there is MERELY heaven and hell? Secondly, the Scripture says that nothing unclean will enter heaven. We will not enter into God's presence until we become holy (Rev, Heb). We are to become holy like the Father (not in degree, but like Him that we love others and Him). Many will die in an imperfect state of holiness. Since Paul clearly states we are being transformed into "another Christ", unless that transformation is completed, we cannot see the Father in heaven and join into union with Him.

Regards

[jo kus]

JP 2 was a philosopher. I think their job is to not write lucidly! Have you ever read Kant? Whew!

Yes, John Paul can be difficult to read, but it is worth the effort. Actually, there is one I found very good, reading-wise, and that is Veritatis Splendor. I have bought a book that goes through all of his encyclicals in "English" for simpletons like myself. I am not home now, so I don't remember the title. If you want it, private mail me and I'll get you the title. There are also books like this on the Vatican 2 documents. It makes reading them (and John Paul 2) much easier.

I also find Benedict's writings to be more clear.

Regards

[jo kus]

WRONG! Unless that Diety is the God of the Bible, then that religion is in violation of the First Commandment

The Decalogue was written to the Jews. To the Gentiles, God gave them a Law written on their hearts. They are to worship the Creator as seen through nature. Worship of creatures is sinful. But how is a Gentile supposed to worship Yahweh if he has never heard of him? God will judge us based on what we know and do/not do.

Regards

[Knitting A Conundrum]

I have several of JPII's books and several of Benedict's. I have to admit, I would rather read Benedict, in part, I think, because, although they are scholarly and well documented often, they are still easier to read!

[magisterium]

I'll ignore the rant in the middle as self-revealing in its ridiculous assertions. It's not necessary to refute it.

I will say, though, that you really have no sense of proportion or balance in your screed about those put to death for their Protestant beliefs. I've said here many times, as have other Catholics, that those long-ago days are beyond unfortunate. But it is simply undeniable that BOTH sides were involved in such executions. Catholics can play the same game, if required for balance. Let's not go there.

[JohnnyM]

"On the contrary, your notion of Calvary and forgiveness comes perilously close to saying we have permission to sin"

We should all make a habit of reading Romans, becuase it has already dealt with your line of reasoning.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

We have died to sin when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour. His sacrifice on the Cross paid the penalty for my sin. There was nothing that I did to earn my salvation, nor was there anything to deserve such a gift as eternal life through Christ's death on the Cross.

The work is finished. There was nothing I could do to earn salvation, and there is nothing I can do to lose it. It was secured for all eternity at Calvary. To say that I can lose my salvation through my actions is to say that Christ's work on the Cross was incomplete and no better than the sacrifice of a goat/sheep/heifer. Those sacrifices were temporary, because they had to be offered year after year, but Christ's sacrifice was eternal, being offered once for the sins of all those who have faith in Him.

The problem we have as Christians is that we have a hard time grasping the power of what happened on the Cross. We want to be involved in that work somehow. Before we put our faith in Him, we try to do it by our works, and after we put our faith in Him, we try to keep it by our works. We so earnestly seek to be perfected by the flesh, even when we were saved by faith. The work was done already. It was finished on the Cross.

We see Christ on the Cross and ourselves here. What we need to see, and in fact what has indeed happened, is to see ourselves on that Cross in Christ. When Christ died, I died. I died to the world and the world died to me. I died to sin. We so rarely see that and still try to do things in our own strength. We try to be good Christians in our own strength. We try to do good things in our strength. We died that day on Calvary and it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. The moment we see that, the moment that fact becomes true in our hearts, than we can decrease and He can increase.

As Christians we should never sin. It is against our nature. Before, sin was our master, now we are slaves to righteousness. We must see ourselves as dead on that Cross. We must see ourselves as dead to sin, because that is what we are.

The book of Romans should be read over and over to reinforce this point. It is such a precious book.

JM

[JohnnyM]

"But how is a Gentile supposed to worship Yahweh if he has never heard of him?"

Romans 10:18 - But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

JM

[redgolum]

My point was that by saying that there are "bonds" in Baptism that don't neccessarly appear visible, that you had stated pretty well what is meant by Lutherans when we talk about the Invisible Church. In that the Shepard has other sheep in other flocks besides the one we are in. >IF they do not reject His Church KNOWINGLY.

Since I know of the Roman Catholic church, and have not joined it, does that count as rejecting it knowingly?

[epow]

For many, many years, Catholics were taught "Outside the Church, there is no salvation." In the NewThink of Vatican II, tradition is easily forgotten

Apparently tradition isn't the only thing forgotten in the Vatican II era, some parts of Holy Scripture seems to be forgotten as well:

Acts 4:12, Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

The Apostle Peter speaking about Jesus of course. Not Mohammed, not Buddha, not an ancestor, not a creed, Jesus Christ.

Seems quite plain and clear to me, the great Apostle who Catholics believe was the first Pope of the Church said that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And PROTESTANTS are not anathemized unless they willfully reject, knowing fully the teaching in question.

Sounds good, but the truth is that the 125 curses the Council of Trent (1545-1565) swore on every Protestant head have not been rescinded. As soon as they are, your ecumenical comments will have some weight on the subject.

Currently, according to the Roman Catholic Church, all Christian men and women who believe in Scriptura alone are anathematized by the RC church and damned to hell.

"If any one shall deny that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure, or virtually--let him be accursed" (Canon 1).

"If any one shall say that the substance of the bread and wine remains in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and shall deny that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the outward forms of the bread and wine still remaining, which conversion the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation--let him be accursed" (Canon 2).

"If any man shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, even with the open worship of latria, and therefore not to be venerated with any peculiar festal celebrity, nor to be solemnly carried about in processions according to the praiseworthy, and universal rites and customs of the holy Church, and that he is not to be publicly set before the people to be adored, and that his adorers are idolaters--let him be accursed" (Canon 6).

"If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed" (Canon 9).

"If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed" (Canon 12).

And the 125 anathemas (eternal damnations against Bible-believing Christians) of the Council of Trent were affirmed most recently by Pope John Paul II in January, 1996, when he commemorated the 450th anniversary of the opening of the Council of Trent by visiting Trento, Italy, and stating that Trent's declarations "maintain all their value."

So as soon as these 125 anathemas are lifted and the Roman Catholic church no longer believes I and all my Protestant brothers and sisters are going to hell because we believe God's free, merciful, unmerited grace alone saves the fallen sinner, let me know.

FWIW, Protestants do not believe the same about your eternal fate.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." All faith given by God, according to His good pleasure from before the foundation of the world. All conversion from sinner to saint by the work of the Holy Ghost alone, according to the will of God and not the will of man. All the elect unerringly gathered and brought home to God by Jesus Christ alone who promises to lose not one whom the Father has given Him.

Rejoice. It is much simpler than you make it out to be.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Excellent post, JM. There's no better understanding of man's place in God's universe and our merciful salvation by God's grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ than in Romans 8 and 9.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Well, thats interesting... tell me... after 30 years of knowing Jesus, what convinced you that He was not the Christ? Or did you ever really find Him to begin with?

Became convinced NT writings are pretty much embellished. I'll just tell ya I must not have really known him to begin with. That way you can keep your theology in a tight little box.

[jo kus]

I was under the impression that Luther's "invisible Church" was his excuse for saying that the Catholic Church as a visible entity was no longer necessary and one thus has the option of leaving. I don't believe I said anything to that effect. Nor did I say that a Protestant denomination is a "church" in of itself. In other words, Protestants come to God through the One Church, whether they realize it or not, and not through a church that teaches falsely.

As to your knowledge of the Roman Catholic Church, I cannot say how much you REALLY know. It is one thing to "know" it as information that you have heard but don't take seriously, and quite another to "know" the arguments of the Church's existence, take them seriously, and yet continue to reject them. "He who hears you hears Me and he who rejects you rejects Me and the One Who sent Me." I cannot make the judgment on "how much" you "know" regarding the Catholic Church as the Church of Christ. That is between God and yourself - for you will have to answer to Him based on your own personal knowledge on why you chose to avoid the Church He established - considering that God desires men to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

Regards