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To: annalex
Don't read into the story what isn't there. People come out of their houses into the streets...no rushing to the temple, they're in the streets supplicating heaven and the account says no more than that. Even the virgins that were kept indoors rush out to various places.

“So when this movement results in them “all” making supplication, it has to be in the temple by the logic of the scene;

No movement to the temple is even suggested, so the logic of the scene is what it says and what is says is that people poured out their houses into the streets , it doesn't have to be in the temple. The phrase “kept indoors” in no way translates into “kept in the temple” by any logic.

Yet I think that equating one with other is a preconceived idea you have so that is reflected in your comments about the logic of the scene and how “it has to be in the temple”.

Let's try to stick with what story says, it says that it was Heliodorus and his crowd of bodyguards, and various ‘hanger-ons” that went to the temple. Nothing more, no temple virgins, no populace rushing in with him, just what is already described.

“But “fear and disturbance” occurred, according to your vision, in the streets, and not in the temple.”

“30. they” are “his men” in vs. 27 so indeed it was in the temple but it was on the part of those who had accompanied Heliodorus to the temple.

You may not have the clue in 3 Macc. 1:18 as “chambers” still isn't the temple.(post #137)

Per the American Bible Society: vs. 18 speaks of ‘young women rushed outside with their mothers’,. (3 Macc 1,18 - BIBLIJA.net - the Bible on the Internet

www.biblija.net/biblija.cgi?Bible...3...33...3+Macc...)

No temple virgins just young women kept at home rushing into the streets with their mothers.

138 posted on 01/31/2013 7:54:42 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
You may not have the clue in 3 Macc. 1:18 as “chambers” still isn't the temple

I had to do my own rushing this morning and apparently I did not properly frame my "clue" in 137. I now agree with you, at least on your main point regarding the "virgins that were shut up": "young women kept at home rushing into the streets with their mothers," as you say, in both passages. This understanding keeps the movement toward the temple that we detect in 2 Maccabees 3:18-22, and which culminates in gladness shared by the priest and the population combined in verse 30, but it also explains how the virgins got there: they left their houses with their mothers.

And were you tripped up by the Dr.?

The body of his research stands: of three scriptural accounts, one, -- the 2 Maccabees 3:19-20, -- does not work, and of four Jewish traditional accounts one, as you noted, is questionable. In particular, the 2 Baruch 10:19 and Pesikta Rabbati 26, 6 do the same work as 2 Maccabees 3:19-20 and Mishna Shekalim 8, 5-6, that you were able to swat down, were purported to do,-- they show a link between specifically virgins and the work at the temple.

How do you feel about critically exploring the two remaining Jewish sources that mention the virgins? That would be Pesikta Rabbati 26,6 and 2 Baruch 10:19. No hidden agenda here: I have an interest to know what of Dr. Marshall's evidence is solid, just as you have an interest in, and demonstrated ability, showing parts that are not solid.

140 posted on 01/31/2013 6:14:00 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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