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To: count-your-change
You may not have the clue in 3 Macc. 1:18 as “chambers” still isn't the temple

I had to do my own rushing this morning and apparently I did not properly frame my "clue" in 137. I now agree with you, at least on your main point regarding the "virgins that were shut up": "young women kept at home rushing into the streets with their mothers," as you say, in both passages. This understanding keeps the movement toward the temple that we detect in 2 Maccabees 3:18-22, and which culminates in gladness shared by the priest and the population combined in verse 30, but it also explains how the virgins got there: they left their houses with their mothers.

And were you tripped up by the Dr.?

The body of his research stands: of three scriptural accounts, one, -- the 2 Maccabees 3:19-20, -- does not work, and of four Jewish traditional accounts one, as you noted, is questionable. In particular, the 2 Baruch 10:19 and Pesikta Rabbati 26, 6 do the same work as 2 Maccabees 3:19-20 and Mishna Shekalim 8, 5-6, that you were able to swat down, were purported to do,-- they show a link between specifically virgins and the work at the temple.

How do you feel about critically exploring the two remaining Jewish sources that mention the virgins? That would be Pesikta Rabbati 26,6 and 2 Baruch 10:19. No hidden agenda here: I have an interest to know what of Dr. Marshall's evidence is solid, just as you have an interest in, and demonstrated ability, showing parts that are not solid.

140 posted on 01/31/2013 6:14:00 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
While I know it sounds more than a bit pompous, even to me, I have to say my interest is getting as accurate an understanding of what the Scriptures teach as possible.

To that end I have no problem accepting or rejecting the scholarship of Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, atheist, etc., Dr. Marshall included.

Indeed any evidence he offers should be examined for what it is no matter who cites it.

I have to break off for a few hours but I'll be back soon.

141 posted on 01/31/2013 6:39:28 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: annalex
“How do you feel about critically exploring the two remaining Jewish sources that mention the virgins? That would be Pesikta Rabbati 26,6 and 2 Baruch 10:19. No hidden agenda here: I have an interest to know what of Dr. Marshall's evidence is solid, just as you have an interest in, and demonstrated ability, showing parts that are not solid.”

Examining the Pesikta Rabbati presents some problems as brief quotes from it are readily available but since the English translations are usually copyrighted material not available unless purchased and I don't favor paying $150 to verify a few lines of reference.
I suspect it a tad too esoteric for the local library to have.

2 Baruch is another matter. It fails the test of reliability with Talmudic writings though much older than the Rabbati.

10:18 advises virgins to toss their weaving into the flames (instead of themselves per the rabbati) to avoid enemy seizure, an act not noted in the Scriptures at all.

So if you want to look at 2 Baruch a bit more closely...sure.
Are there temple virgins there?

142 posted on 02/01/2013 9:01:13 AM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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