The Protoevangelium of James

Early Christian Writings ^ | 2nd century AD | Attributed to St. James

[count-your-change]

There were specialists then too. I seem to recall that their normal skills were enhanced by God’s spirit. Again, thanks for the additional info!

If not an English Bible which language Bible are you using?

[jjotto]

Absolutely, the Holy Spirit guided them (at least until God handed over the keys to the Catholic Church! /s)

I generally use a Judaica Press version, but concentrate on the Hebrew text.

It’s Bezaleel (Exodus Chapter 31) in the KJV (I think), so the name is not much different.

[annalex]

Put it all together and give it a shake and there’s the temple virgins.

Except 2 Macc 3:19-20 puts the virgins secluded in the temple, and common logic says that work around the temple would not be done by married women or widows.

There is a parable about three blind men examining an elephant. One touches a leg and says "it's a column", another -- the tail and says, "it's a rope", a third, an ear and says "it's a pelted skin". The conclusion should not escape them: it is an elephant.

[annalex]

showed how far fetched these tales were

Yes, they are, but it does not discredit the Talmud as a history source for evidence of the customs of the time. Quoting myself at 112, "it would be right to point out that neither of the rabbis' opinions was without controversy. But if we were to use the passage to assert that, for example, some women were hairdressers in those days, we would be correct in our assertion, regardless of anything else that passage says."

[annalex]

Actually, most ‘consumables’ in the Temple ended up in a known family

In what time period, and what do you mean by "most"?

I have not learned details except in the case of the incense, and that only because colorful archaeologist Vendyl Jones apparently found a silo full of the stuff.

Were male fossils, exclusive of virgin fossils, also in the "stuff"? Thank you for your opinion though.

[count-your-change]

The passage doesn’t say some women, it says Mary. The question is not whether there were virgins or a temple or a tabernacle but whether there were temple virgins at the door of the tabernacle.

It's called conflating, taking separate unrelated ideas and trying to mix them into a single fact.

Since the Scriptures offer no support for cloistered temple virgins it's not surprising that sources like the Talmud and visions and apocrypha would be brought in, unreliable as they are.

[count-your-change]

Marshall, on his blog site, says this in quoting 2 Macc. 3:19,20:

"The third and final reference to these liturgical females is in 2 Maccabees:

And the virgins also that were shut up, came forth, some to {High Priest} Onias, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows. And all holding up their hands towards heaven, made supplication. (2 Macc 3:19-20)

Here are virgins that are shut up. In the Greek it is "αἱ δὲ κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων" or "the shut up ones of the virgins."

In this passage the Holy Spirit refers not to all the virgins of Jerusalem, but to a special set of virgins, that is, those virgins who had the privilege and right to be in the presence of the High Priest and address him.

It's rather ridiculous to think that young girls would have general access to the High Priest of Israel. However, if these virgins had a special liturgical role at the Temple, it becomes clear that they would both address the High Priest Onias and would also be featured as an essential part of the intense supplication in the Temple at this moment of crisis."

Marshall doesn't say what translation he is quoting from so I can't comment on its accuracy or such but the Catholic bishop approved NABRE and the 1611 edition of the AV with 2 Macc. (Oxford University Press, 1997) reads as follows:

"Women, girded with sackcloth below their breasts, filled the streets. Young women secluded indoors all ran, some to the gates, some to the walls, others peered through the windows— 20. all of them with hands raised toward heaven, making supplication."

NABRE 2 Macc. 2:19,20

According to the translation approved for Catholic faithful by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops there was no cloister of virgins in the temple who had face time with the high priest. The "secluded" women were just young women kept in doors.

[annalex]

The passage doesn’t say some women, it says Mary.

Yes, and that is pure speculation or deliberate insinuation on the part of the author, or possibly a projection by others since both Jesus and Mary were very common names. But you understand my point: We don't have to believe the author on the identity of the protagonists, but we can deduce that there were hairdressers at that time, since he is mentioning that occupation casually. Likewise, from the passages Dr. Marhsall brings into focus we conclude that there were women occupied in weaving, maiking incense and baking, at the temple. I am a bit tired repeating this point; if it is still not clear perhaps you should ask someone to explain it to you.

whether there were temple virgins at the door of the tabernacle.

Right, and unless someone took care to make sure women at the door of the tabernacle were all married, the women making the veil etc. were likewise all married whereas the virgins shut up were away from the tabernacle, the question, like that about the nature of the animal with columnar legs and floppy ears, is answered in the positive.

sources like the Talmud and visions and apocrypha

The visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich I shouldn't even have quoted, and none of my post relied on that. The rest, whatever your opinion is on the canonicity of the Book of Maccabees, are historical period evidence, and of course, Exodus 38:8 and Samuel 2:22 are without dispute canonical. Again, if you have a difficulty understanding this simple proposition, maybe you should ask someone you trust for cognitive help.

[annalex]

The "secluded" women were just young women kept in doors.

The original says, in full,

ὑπεζωσμέναι δὲ ὑπὸ τοὺς μαστοὺς αἱ γυναῖκες σάκκους κατὰ τὰς ὁδοὺς ἐπλήθυνον αἱ δὲ κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων αἱ μὲν συνέτρεχον ἐπὶ τοὺς πυλῶνας αἱ δὲ ἐπὶ τὰ τείχη τινὲς δὲ διὰ τῶν θυρίδων διεξέκυπτον
πᾶσαι δὲ προτείνουσαι τὰς χεῖρας εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν ἐποιοῦντο τὴν λιτανείαν (2 Maccabees 3:19-20)

Dr. Marshall's quote is correct. Here are the dictionary entries for the two operative words:

κατά-κλειστος , ον,

A. shut up, of women, Call.Fr.118, cf. LXX 2 Ma.3.19, Luc.Tim.15, Hsch.; “οἴκοι κατάκλειστος ἦν” D.L.6.94; “κ. εἶχεν τὰ βιβλία” Str.13.1.54; precious, τίμιον ἢ κ. S.E.P.1.143.

(Liddell-Scott - 1)

παρθένος , Lacon. παρσένος Ar.Lys.1263 (lyr.). ἡ,

A. maiden, girl, Il.22.127, etc. ; αἱ ἄθλιαι π. ἐμαί my unhappy girls, S.OT1462, cf. Ar.Eq.1302 ; also “γυνὴ παρθένος” Hes. Th.514; π. κόρα, of the Sphinx, dub. in E.Ph.1730 (lyr.); θυγάτηρ π. X.Cyr.4.6.9 ; of Persephone, E. Hel.1342 (lyr.), cf. S.Fr.804; virgin, opp. γυνή, Id.Tr.148, Theoc.27.65.

2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Il.2.514, Pi.P.3.34, S.Tr.1219, Ar.Nu.530.

3. Παρθένος, ἡ, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens, Paus.5.11.10, 10.34.8 (hence of an Att. coin bearing her head, E.Fr.675); of Artemis, E.Hipp.17 ; of the Tauric Iphigenia, Hdt.4.103 ; of an unnamed goddess, SIG46.3 (Halic., v B.C.), IG12.108.48,54 (Neapolis in Thrace); αἱ ἱεραὶ π., of the Vestal Virgins, D.H.1.69, Plu.2.89e, etc. ; αἱ Ἑστιάδες π. Id.Cic.19; simply, αἱ π. D.H.2.66.

4. the constellation Virgo, Eudox. ap. Hipparch. 1.2.5, Arat.97, etc.

5. = κόρη 111, pupil, X.ap.Longin.4.4, Aret. SD1.7.

II. as Adj., maiden, chaste, “παρθένον ψυχὴν ἔχων” E.Hipp. 1006, cf. Porph. Marc.33 ; μίτρη π. Epigr.Gr.319 : metaph., “π. πηγή” A.Pers.613.

III. as masc., παρθένος, ὁ, unmarried man, Apoc.14.4.

IV. π. γῆ Samian earth (cf. “παρθένιος” 111), PMag.Berol.2.57.

(Liddell-Scott - 2)

[count-your-change]

“original”? original what? language? manuscript? what?

This is what I posted earlier:
Marshall, on his blog site, says this in quoting 2 Macc. 3:19,20:
“The third and final reference to these liturgical females is in 2 Maccabees:

And the virgins also that were shut up, came forth, some to {High Priest} Onias, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows. And all holding up their hands towards heaven, made supplication. (2 Macc 3:19-20)”

So where in that Greek (I've already provided a translation but will again) is any high priest Onias mentioned? Hint...
he isn't so you can't say Marshall's correct since he doesn't say where his translation came from. Do you know?

This translation and the I provided earlier are Brenton's of 1851:

“19 And the women, girt with sackcloth under their breasts, abounded in the streets, and the virgins that were kept in ran, some to the gates, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows. 20 And all, holding their hands toward heaven, made supplication.”

The Liddell-Scott reference says 2 Macc. uses “shut-up” of women, virgins, maidens but so what? Kept in, secluded would work too but nothing is said about temple virgins or high priest Onias in that untranslated Greek text you cited.

Is that why the English translation was not given with it?

Again, where in that Greek text you posted is any mention of high priest Onias?

[count-your-change]

I understand quite well and I think that presents a problem since the conflations and misquotes and (your) untranslated Greek doesn't lead to the conclusions that Marshall states and you cite and defend as accurate.

Where does the reading of 2 Macc. that Marshall gave come from? Do you know? Is it part of the LXX? Do you know? What Greek manuscripts (if any) is Marshall's reading found in since you used the term “original”?

If you're going to rely on 2 Macc. as a source then surely you would know just as surely as the Greek text you posted does NOT agree with Marshall's quote.

If you need “cognitive help” get back to me.

[annalex]

original what?

In 129, as is my habit, I quoted from Septuagint/LXX; the text is derived from "LXX = Septuaginta, ed. A. Rahlfs (Stuttgart: WŸrttembergische Bibelanstalt, 1935; repr. in 9th ed., 1971)". The Greek Septuagint is, as you know, the original for the books of Maccabees. I use Unbound Bible for all my originals and variant translations (I use Douay-Rheims for casual reading). Unfortunately, the search results at that server do not come with their own URL, so that I could quote the same page I am copying from. However, if you go to Unbound Bible and select any of the several Greek OT:LXX selections (perhaps alongside one or more translated versions), you will get the same text I posted.

Your 127 appeared to criticize the translation of κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων in Dr, Marshall's blog. So my 129 focused on these two words and showed (I hope it did) that the Douay-Rheims translation "virgins that are shut up" is correct.

where in that Greek is any high priest Onias mentioned?

He isn't; thank you for pointing that out. Instead of "to Onias" the original has "ἐπὶ τοὺς πυλῶνας", -- to the gates. "Onias" appears in St. Jerome's Vulgate:

Accinctæque mulieres ciliciis pectus, per plateas confluebant : sed et virgines, quæ conclusæ erant, procurrebant ad Oniam, aliæ autem ad muros, quædam vero per fenestras aspiciebant :

universæ autem protendentes manus in cælum, deprecabantur :

Accordingly, Douay-Rheims, based exclusively on the Vulgate, renders "to Onias", and that is what Dr. Marshall quotes. He should not have made the discourse about "the privilege and right to be in the presence of the High Priest" appear to be based solely on the two verses he actually quoted. Now, St. Jerome had access to codices we don't have, so his translation of verse 19 cannot be discarded completely, but that certainly raises a question mark; even more so since "to Onias" sticks out in that enumeration of architectural elements.

nothing is said about temple virgins or high priest Onias in that untranslated Greek text you cited.

True. You are making a valid point. However, whether Onias is mentioned in verses 19-20 or not, Onias is the center of the dramatic scene that also involves the "shut up virgins". I understand that you may not have a ready access to the complete Holy Bible and so, with apology for length, I quote the entire episode from New Revised Standard Version, 2 Maccabees Chapter 3, which correctly renders verse 19:

1. While the holy city was inhabited in unbroken peace and the laws were strictly observed because of the piety of the high priest Onias and his hatred of wickedness,
2. it came about that the kings themselves honored the place and glorified the temple with the finest presents,
3. even to the extent that King Seleucus of Asia defrayed from his own revenues all the expenses connected with the service of the sacrifices.
4. But a man named Simon, of the tribe of Benjamin, who had been made captain of the temple, had a disagreement with the high priest about the administration of the city market.
5. Since he could not prevail over Onias, he went to Apollonius of Tarsus, who at that time was governor of Coelesyria and Phoenicia,
6. and reported to him that the treasury in Jerusalem was full of untold sums of money, so that the amount of the funds could not be reckoned, and that they did not belong to the account of the sacrifices, but that it was possible for them to fall under the control of the king.
7. When Apollonius met the king, he told him of the money about which he had been informed. The king chose Heliodorus, who was in charge of his affairs, and sent him with commands to effect the removal of the reported wealth.
8. Heliodorus at once set out on his journey, ostensibly to make a tour of inspection of the cities of Coelesyria and Phoenicia, but in fact to carry out the king's purpose.
9. When he had arrived at Jerusalem and had been kindly welcomed by the high priest of the city, he told about the disclosure that had been made and stated why he had come, and he inquired whether this really was the situation.
10. The high priest explained that there were some deposits belonging to widows and orphans,
11. and also some money of Hyrcanus son of Tobias, a man of very prominent position, and that it totaled in all four hundred talents of silver and two hundred of gold. To such an extent the impious Simon had misrepresented the facts.
12. And he said that it was utterly impossible that wrong should be done to those people who had trusted in the holiness of the place and in the sanctity and inviolability of the temple that is honored throughout the whole world.
13. But Heliodorus, because of the orders he had from the king, said that this money must in any case be confiscated for the king's treasury.
14. So he set a day and went in to direct the inspection of these funds. There was no little distress throughout the whole city.
15. The priests prostrated themselves before the altar in their priestly vestments and called toward heaven upon him who had given the law about deposits, that he should keep them safe for those who had deposited them.
16. To see the appearance of the high priest was to be wounded at heart, for his face and the change in his color disclosed the anguish of his soul.
17. For terror and bodily trembling had come over the man, which plainly showed to those who looked at him the pain lodged in his heart.
18. People also hurried out of their houses in crowds to make a general supplication because the holy place was about to be brought into dishonor.
19. Women, girded with sackcloth under their breasts, thronged the streets. Some of the young women who were kept indoors ran together to the gates, and some to the walls, while others peered out of the windows.
20. And holding up their hands to heaven, they all made supplication.
21. There was something pitiable in the prostration of the whole populace and the anxiety of the high priest in his great anguish.
22. While they were calling upon the Almighty Lord that he would keep what had been entrusted safe and secure for those who had entrusted it,
23. Heliodorus went on with what had been decided.
24. But when he arrived at the treasury with his bodyguard, then and there the Sovereign of spirits and of all authority caused so great a manifestation that all who had been so bold as to accompany him were astounded by the power of God, and became faint with terror.
25. For there appeared to them a magnificently caparisoned horse, with a rider of frightening mien; it rushed furiously at Heliodorus and struck at him with its front hoofs. Its rider was seen to have armor and weapons of gold.
26. Two young men also appeared to him, remarkably strong, gloriously beautiful and splendidly dressed, who stood on either side of him and flogged him continuously, inflicting many blows on him.
27. When he suddenly fell to the ground and deep darkness came over him, his men took him up, put him on a stretcher,
28. and carried him away-- this man who had just entered the aforesaid treasury with a great retinue and all his bodyguard but was now unable to help himself. They recognized clearly the sovereign power of God.
29. While he lay prostrate, speechless because of the divine intervention and deprived of any hope of recovery,
30. they praised the Lord who had acted marvelously for his own place. And the temple, which a little while before was full of fear and disturbance, was filled with joy and gladness, now that the Almighty Lord had appeared.
31. Some of Heliodorus's friends quickly begged Onias to call upon the Most High to grant life to one who was lying quite at his last breath.
32. So the high priest, fearing that the king might get the notion that some foul play had been perpetrated by the Jews with regard to Heliodorus, offered sacrifice for the man's recovery.
33. While the high priest was making an atonement, the same young men appeared again to Heliodorus dressed in the same clothing, and they stood and said, "Be very grateful to the high priest Onias, since for his sake the Lord has granted you your life.
34. And see that you, who have been flogged by heaven, report to all people the majestic power of God." Having said this they vanished.
35. Then Heliodorus offered sacrifice to the Lord and made very great vows to the Savior of his life, and having bidden Onias farewell, he marched off with his forces to the king.
36. He bore testimony to all concerning the deeds of the supreme God, which he had seen with his own eyes.
37. When the king asked Heliodorus what sort of person would be suitable to send on another mission to Jerusalem, he replied,
38. "If you have any enemy or plotter against your government, send him there, for you will get him back thoroughly flogged, if he survives at all; for there is certainly some power of God about the place.
39. For he who has his dwelling in heaven watches over that place himself and brings it aid, and he strikes and destroys those who come to do it injury."
40. This was the outcome of the episode of Heliodorus and the protection of the treasury.

As you can see, regardless of the direction of the desperate movements of the κατάκλειστοι τῶν παρθένων in verse 19, they were definitely secluded in the temple, where the entire scene takes place.

[count-your-change]

The translation you provide is very close in wording to most translations I've read, whether by Protestant or Catholic publishers, for example the NABRE.

Nothing in their wording suggest the scene in vss. 18, 19 takes place within the temple or that the virgins were anything other than the young women being kept secluded within their own homes.
That is what is being described in vss. 18, 19. People poured into the streets from their “houses”, women wearing sack cloth were in the “streets” while the young women went to the “gates”, “walls”, and some looked out the “windows”.

This is not events within the temple at all. What was is the priests before the altar not women, young and old, pouring into the streets from their houses.

2 Macc. was probably written in Greek yet the LXX does not agree with the Vulgate in vs. 19 about Onias. So while we may speculate about what Jerome had available we have to work with what we have available.

Can you find any Greek text that agrees with the Vulgate in vs. 19?
Can you find any English translation, Catholic or Protestant or other, that agrees with the Vulgate and D-R?

Is there any modern translation, Catholic (even the NAB simply says, “secluded indoors”) or Protestant, that even suggests the virgins of vs.19 were “cloistered” in the temple?

The answers would not support any sense of a group of temple virgins.

[annalex]

Still, verses 21 and 30 show it all,— v. 21 says “all”, — to be one crowd and one scene, at the temple. I agree, however, that the reading that you propose is possible, — that the virgins were secluded in their own houses rather than in the temple, and were not among those praying together with the priest, if one rejects Jerome’s translation.

No, I don’t have easy access to anything except the LXX online. Obviously there is no other English translation based so closely on the Vulgate as Jerome’s. I will research around further, but not today.

[count-your-change]

Going back to your earlier post, #132. Since at the time of writing there would have been no verse numbers verse 20 is simply a continuation of the sentence of verse 19. The “all” would be the women and possibly the “people” of verse 18.
“18. People also hurried out of their houses in crowds to make a general supplication because the holy place was about to be brought into dishonor.
19. Women, girded with sackcloth under their breasts, thronged the streets. Some of the young women who were kept indoors ran together to the gates, and some to the walls, while others peered out of the windows.
20. And holding up their hands to heaven, they all made supplication.”

While this is occurring Heliodorus arrives at the treasury, vs. 23 is a continuation of vs. 22, receives a flogging and is carried away by his men.

Those persons in the temple, vs.24, were those who went to treasury with Heliodorus, his body guard and possibly some friends:
“24. But when he arrived at the treasury with his bodyguard, then and there the Sovereign of spirits and of all authority caused so great a manifestation that all who had been so bold as to accompany him were astounded by the power of God, and became faint with terror.”

Vs. 28 says that it is Heliodorus’ “retinue” and “bodyguard” that were in the temple with him so the “they” of vs. 30 would be those people, friends and bodyguard.

There are two scenes described, one is the people, the women in the streets and Heliodorus with his group in the temple treasury.

Apparently Heliodorus returns to the temple to offer a sacrifice and speak to Onias, finally leaving.

It's not the people, the women and virgins who are in the temple, they're in the streets, on the walls, at the gates or looking out their windows, it's Heliodorus and his people who are in the temple, the treasury.

Two scenes, the street, the temple.

[annalex]

I agree that you present a plausible reading.

The “all” in v. 20 indeed refers to the participants in the preceding scene. But that scene includes generic “people”, then “women” and then “young women who were kept indoors”. That scene has moving parts: women rush to the temple (why else would they leave their houses?) while the virgins are confined. So when this movement results in them “all” making supplication, it has to be in the temple by the logic of the scene; but the virgins participated in the supplication since they are a part of “all”. Next in verse 21 the unity of the scene is underscored and the priest is a part of it. So this passage, verses 18-22, describes a physical movement to the temple and toward the priest in order to pray together; yet the virgins who cannot move are still a part of it. Therefore they have been in the temple to begin with.

The issue that I see with your reading in verse 30 is this part: “the temple, which a little while before was full of fear and disturbance...”.

But “fear and disturbance” occurred, according to your vision, in the streets, and not in the temple.

[annalex]

I found the clue to it all:

Young women who had been secluded in their chambers rushed out with their mothers, sprinkled their hair with dust, and filled the streets with groans and lamentations. (3 Macc. 1:18/NRSV)

So these virgins were in their houses and rushed to the temple with their mothers also in the 2 Maccabees scene in focus. Dr. Marhsall was tripped up by the error in the Vulgate.

[count-your-change]

Don't read into the story what isn't there. People come out of their houses into the streets...no rushing to the temple, they're in the streets supplicating heaven and the account says no more than that. Even the virgins that were kept indoors rush out to various places.

“So when this movement results in them “all” making supplication, it has to be in the temple by the logic of the scene;

No movement to the temple is even suggested, so the logic of the scene is what it says and what is says is that people poured out their houses into the streets , it doesn't have to be in the temple. The phrase “kept indoors” in no way translates into “kept in the temple” by any logic.

Yet I think that equating one with other is a preconceived idea you have so that is reflected in your comments about the logic of the scene and how “it has to be in the temple”.

Let's try to stick with what story says, it says that it was Heliodorus and his crowd of bodyguards, and various ‘hanger-ons” that went to the temple. Nothing more, no temple virgins, no populace rushing in with him, just what is already described.

“But “fear and disturbance” occurred, according to your vision, in the streets, and not in the temple.”

“30. they” are “his men” in vs. 27 so indeed it was in the temple but it was on the part of those who had accompanied Heliodorus to the temple.

You may not have the clue in 3 Macc. 1:18 as “chambers” still isn't the temple.(post #137)

Per the American Bible Society: vs. 18 speaks of ‘young women rushed outside with their mothers’,. (3 Macc 1,18 - BIBLIJA.net - the Bible on the Internet

www.biblija.net/biblija.cgi?Bible...3...33...3+Macc...)

No temple virgins just young women kept at home rushing into the streets with their mothers.

[count-your-change]

“Dr. Marhsall was tripped up by the error in the Vulgate.”

And were you tripped up by the Dr.?

[annalex]

You may not have the clue in 3 Macc. 1:18 as “chambers” still isn't the temple

I had to do my own rushing this morning and apparently I did not properly frame my "clue" in 137. I now agree with you, at least on your main point regarding the "virgins that were shut up": "young women kept at home rushing into the streets with their mothers," as you say, in both passages. This understanding keeps the movement toward the temple that we detect in 2 Maccabees 3:18-22, and which culminates in gladness shared by the priest and the population combined in verse 30, but it also explains how the virgins got there: they left their houses with their mothers.

And were you tripped up by the Dr.?

The body of his research stands: of three scriptural accounts, one, -- the 2 Maccabees 3:19-20, -- does not work, and of four Jewish traditional accounts one, as you noted, is questionable. In particular, the 2 Baruch 10:19 and Pesikta Rabbati 26, 6 do the same work as 2 Maccabees 3:19-20 and Mishna Shekalim 8, 5-6, that you were able to swat down, were purported to do,-- they show a link between specifically virgins and the work at the temple.

How do you feel about critically exploring the two remaining Jewish sources that mention the virgins? That would be Pesikta Rabbati 26,6 and 2 Baruch 10:19. No hidden agenda here: I have an interest to know what of Dr. Marshall's evidence is solid, just as you have an interest in, and demonstrated ability, showing parts that are not solid.