The US is the relevant question for one joining the Catholic Church in the US in the midst of this struggle.
That is actually my big point. Doctrine is one thing, practice is another. The Catholic doctrine practiced in the Vatican is not the same doctrine practiced at 'US Diocease X'.
Were it a question of official doctrine alone it would be a lot diferent scenerio however when one joins a faith they also incur going to a specific parish, and associating with person of that faith. It opens one to the influence of their execution of that faith. So it is not a measure of doctrine alone it's a measure of the folks in the parish keeping the faith, the priest correcting those who don't, and the bishop correcting the priest when he doesn't follow it, or fails to address parishioners not following it.
FWIW if he was joining an Eastern Catholic church it would also be a lot different being as those churches operating both in the US and in the East have not suffered the same kind of entrenchment of these problems.
As I've stated on other threads the reason I was never baptised Catholic even though I went to a Catholic school, and largely beleived the Catholic religion classes was that it was plain to me that the doctrine in those materials was not followed by the majority.
So it comes down to a question of do I go with a church that has an official ban on contraception, and abortion, and divorce, but whenever I meet parishioners outside church they openly support these things, or do I go with the one that has the same beleifs on abortion and divorce, and an apparently relaxed policy on contraception, but when I meet parishioners they support the church's stance on these, and remind me to do things like fast during fasting periods, etc.
One must be interested in both following a doctrine that leads to the kingdom and also being in a parish headed that way, that will keep one in line when one treads off the path.
I suspect there are a great many parishs in the Catholic church like that some even in America, but certainly haven't seen them where I live.
[Further I resent the notion that the pope is the head of the church, and sinless, where as the orthodox don't call any men sinless and confess Christ to be the head of the church; that is the main difference.]
"Were it a question of official doctrine alone it would be a lot diferent scenerio however when one joins a faith they also incur going to a specific parish, and associating with person of that faith. It opens one to the influence of their execution of that faith."
But indeed, it IS a matter of official doctrine alone. Dissenters are responsible for their dissent; the non-dissenting hold themselves accountable to the officially-taught (and objectively known) doctrines of the Church. I choose to be in the latter camp, and those who choose otherwise KNOW they've chosen otherwise. Therefore, this objection is moot.
"One must be interested in both following a doctrine that leads to the kingdom and also being in a parish headed that way, that will keep one in line when one treads off the path."
Folks, Catholics KNOW what the Church teaches (or at least have recourse to find out from official and reliable publications of the Church), and they know that what they're doing is outside the bounds of orthodox Catholicism. The problem is, I can't figure out the doctrinal position of much of Orthodoxy on rather key issues. And when I bring up exceptions to your rules (you asserted there's no sex abuse problem, and I showed you at least two, and you asserted from the Bible that men are not to cover their heads while praying, and you rejected the Syriac Orthodox who do this practice to be members of a non-mainstream Orthodox Church). To everything, you take recourse in ROCOR, which appears to be more 'conservative' in its rendering of marital and sexual morality, but I've discovered this not to be the case in other Orthodox Churches. So, which way, again, do you want it?
"[Further I resent the notion that the pope is the head of the church, and sinless, where as the orthodox don't call any men sinless and confess Christ to be the head of the church; that is the main difference.]"
You've been shown that the Pope is the VISIBLE head of the Church on earth, as a representative of Christ. But for some reason you keep insisting that he's more than that. The Church has ALWAYS held that Christ is the head of the Church!
The Church also rejects the notion that the Pope is sinless. I'm not sure where you've gotten this idea, but it isn't true.
Dear x5452,
"[Further I resent the notion that the pope is ... sinlessm...]
That's good!
We Catholics don't think the pope is sinless, either!
One more thing on which Catholics and Orthodox agree. ;-)
Also, as to "top-down" and the excommunication of apostate priests, I assume that Orthodox Patriarchs hold the same authority? To excommunicate apostate priests?
The priest involved was, after all, Roman Catholic, and thus answerable to the Patriarch of the West.
sitetest
I understand your concern. However, I would like to comment. Feel free to respond.
First, the Church, even before the Great Schism, has been as you describe above. Perhaps not to the same degree, but we can easily find entire areas that were swept up in heresy. Must I remind you of Arianism again? The majority of Eastern Churches at the time were Arian, against the Catholic belief AND practice of the time. In other words, EVEN the Arians WORSHIP Christ as God. Thus, it is not uncommon for worship to become separated from doctrinal definitions.
Next, I strongly disagree with your generalization that "all" Catholics that you meet do not follow their Church's teaching. That is a generalization that I don't find to be true. Sure, there are many who don't believe this or that. They have not been properly catechized. But there still are a number of the "silent majority" who continue to believe what the Church teaches, and practices it.
In a perfect world, everyone would believe the same thing and doctrine would reflect that. But man is sinful and proud. Thus, even within the Church, we will find people who disagree with Catholic (or Orthodox) teachings. Also, the Bible mentions having to deal with lukewarm Christians, or what we call nominal Catholics. They are Catholic in name only. The Spirit comes to those who OPEN themselves to Him, not just because they had an official Baptism/Confirmation. We each must have a conversion experience, even those who are born into the faith. Otherwise, the Spirit is pushed out. People here in America are very much tempted by the culture. Not only to follow materialistic ways, but to think that the Church is a democracy and that people can believe what they want. As an Orthodox, you should be able to understand that man's reason is insufficient to come to the knowledge of Christ.
I don't find that agreement on heresies as a sign of a good Church. Just because people agree on an error doesn't make it correct. So again, unity does not necessarily point to the Church, as it is the timeless Church, not the Church of today only, that gives us our Tradition, the teachings passed down. I believe that both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their own distinct issues and problems. Rather than pointing out ours, you should be looking to correct your own.
Further I resent the notion that the pope is the head of the church, and sinless, where as the orthodox don't call any men sinless and confess Christ to be the head of the church; that is the main difference.
Again, your Catholic "education" leaves much to be desired, as the Church does not teach that the Pope is impeccable. Your "difference" is a false dichotomy. If you still don't believe me, check out the Catechism. It clearly states that the Pope is NOT sinless.
Regards