The Desert of Religion
and other poems and religious pieces
1st half of 15th century
England
The British Library
Souls in Purgatory, drawn up to Heaven by means of masses offered for the dead
Posted on 11/17/2005 4:35:36 PM PST by COBOL2Java
LOL...well, we DO have the Devils.
That would make it hell, then...
Nice to hear from you, too!
I did not intentionally omit anything about ongoing sanctification etc in Protestant theology. I am just not that up on the subject.
But, from what you wrote about ongoing santification and final glorification, Catholics and Protestants just arguing semantics?
I don't believe we're just arguing over semantics. While I believe that Catholics and Protestants agree on the fundamental aspects of God Himself (such as the nature of the Trinity, identity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, etc), we have deep, fundamental disagreements over the hierarchical authority and the "how tos" of redemption itself.
One of those disagreements is over the implications/severity of disagreeing on the issues themselves. Protestants (at least the ones I know) have something of a hierarchical set of values re theology. For example, disagreements about the person and work of Jesus Christ are considered to have salvific implications and consequences. But differences on the mode of baptism or nature of the Eucharist, while important, may not be viewed as important enough to presume the absence of salvation or redemption for Protestants. If I read the Council of Trent correctly, int he Catholic view it's not possible to disagree on most of these issues without eternal and temporal consequences, and hence we Protestants hear that we are of "a different faith" even though we agree on the nature of the Diety that we worship.
To overgeneralize, one of our respective differences (and the one we're discussing now) is IMO all about cause and effect. Protestants secure their sanctification (the gradual transformation towards a glorified body and mind) primarily by their repentance and continual move towards increasingly ethical behavior. From what I am reading on this thread, (and stop me if I'm wrong) that Catholics secure it primarily by the ingestion of the Eucharist. For Protestants, it is a question of ethics and behavior 24/7. For Catholics, it appears to be diet and confession, i.e. ingesting a unique and beneficial dietary supplement, akin to taking growth hormones, will itself cause a change in one's physical and moral makeup. Protestants = behavior. Catholics = participation in ceremony and diet.
My apologies in advance if this seems crass and irreverent. I don't intend it to be, but I can't think of another way to highlight our differences.
Souls in Purgatory, drawn up to Heaven by means of masses offered for the dead
"...Protestants secure their sanctification .. primarily by their repentance and continual move towards increasingly ethical behavior. ... Catholics secure it primarily by the ingestion of the Eucharist. For Protestants, it is a question of ethics and behavior 24/7. For Catholics, it appears to be diet and confession..."
Then we are just arguing semantics. For Catholics salvation comes through repentance and continual movement towards Christ. The Eucharist simply gives us strength to continue that movement. When we fall into sin, reconciliation restores us to grace so that we can pick up and start moving towards Christ again.
Honestly, I thought Protestants, generally, taught that one was saved at a moment of salvation and that was that. No matter what they did after that they would be in heaven. What you are describing is a very Catholic soteriology.
Boy that sounds soooo...... (FR5th).
Our Lord dictated the following prayer to St. Gertrude the Great to release 1,000 Souls from Purgatory each times it is said:
Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the world today, for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen.
Sorry but I do not accept that the dictation came from the Lord. If it did it would carry the weight of scripture. Has the Catholic Church cannonized the visions of St. Gertrude?
We canonize people, not visions. The prayer of St. Gertrude is very popular, but like any private revelation, it does not have to be obeyed or prayed.
I thought it was "dictation" from the Lord himself. What happended to that?
It is a private revelation St. Gertrude received. Since she was canonized, the revelation was probably ipso facto approved, but not being a canon lawyer I cannot be sure. You said that a private revelation equals in status the scripture, and that is incorrect. People are free to follow or not follow private revelations, but they are not free to disregard the scripture. You are certainly free not to pray St. Gertrude's prayer.
Wrong. I said that if Jesus actually dictated it, then it should have the force of scripture. I don't believe for a second that Jesus dictated that prayer or that it has the effect that St. Gertrude claims it has. If it did, then there would obviously be no souls in Purgatory. Oh wait, there are no souls in Purgatory. Maybe it worked.... Or maybe there's no Purgatory.
Why?
Because it would be the very word of God... Which, of course, it wasn't.
And how do you know that to be true?
Prayer given to Saint Faustina:
Eternal Father, I offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your
Beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins, and the sins of the whole
world.
One of the prayers given at Fatima:
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I offer You the most precious Body, Blood , Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the sacrileges, outrages and indifference by which He Himself is offended. And through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners."
This is not directed at you jo kus, but to Catholics in general...
I'd like to stand up for the defesne of the beliefs of some Protestant churches...I think the view of the Protestant (by the way I can't stand that word) of belief is a bit simplistic and misportrayed by that simplistic viewpoint described in this statement:
"In a very simplistic way, the Protestants said and say that because of the fall there is nothing good left in us and so redemption is Christ's death and his covering our sinfulness with Christ's passion and death. Humans are not transformed into sanctified humans rather they are sinful humans covered with the cope of righteousness"
Truth be told, we are sinful and without Christ's redemptive act we would receive our due punishment and eternal damnnation...
My "protestant" church believes this:
Christ's death covers all our sins as God accepts Christs sacrifice who died in our place (1 Peter 3:18; Hebrews 10:12)...unfortunately most reject Christ and condemn themselves living in their flesh rather than in the Spirit. I CAN'T REPEAT THIS ENOUGH, NOT ALL PROTESTANTS BELIEVE ALL PEOPLE GO TO HEAVEN...
We are to obey Jesus commands of loving God first and others next, essentially echoing the 10 commandments. (John 14:15; John 14:23 etc)
We need to be baptized (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38, etc) . We need to repent (meaning contritely confessing our sins and working to leave our sinful life behind us--you'll call it sanctification) (Mark 1:15; Luke 3:8; Luke 13:3).
We believe in Jesus's death as our salvation (Romans 1:16; ).
We beleive that we receive Jesus's Body and Blood in Holy Communion. (1 Corinthians 10:16)
We believe that we are saved by faith in Christ as God promised (faith defintion is as follows: Belief in Christ (John 3;15-18; John 3:36; John 6:40; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:13 etc), repenting of sins (Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3 etc) , rejecting sinful life (Romans 8:6; Galatians 5:6, 6:8), living in Christ and producing fruits aka doing the good works God has prepared for us (Ephesians 2:10) )...
We believe that man is in a state of rebellion against God until man is brought to the faith in Christ's sacrifice... God brings us to him by the Holy Spirit thru baptism (1 cor 12:13) ...once we receieve this gift of baptism however, we can reject God by not believing, or rejecting our faith in Christ (1 Tim 1:15-19; John 3:16-18 etc)**NOT ALL PROTESTANTS BELIEVE IN ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED...if we follow in the path of faith, we are promised salvation (again 1 Tim 1:15-19; John 3: 16-18; Luke 5:20; Acts 20:21, Acts 26:18 (in this passage, notice Christ tells Paul those who turn will be sanctified by faith in Christ, I found that to be quite interesting...other verses)
There...I feel better...I grow tired of the same ignorant barrages that I suspect Catholics grow tired of...I just needed to share that...
In Christ
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