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To: Kolokotronis
"It appears to me that you understand that the original created purpose of Man was to become like God, Man having been created in the image and likeness of God."

The purpose was to give the gift of life. The characteristics given to that end to the being were his own. The characteristics refer to ability, not the results of the exercise of the abilities. That is His Spirit which He also gives, but the judgenment and acceptance f that Spirit is subject to the free will of the man.

"It also appears to me that you believe that Adam and Eve sinned by trying to become like God before they were ready and suffered the consequences of that sin, but the consequences of that sin (quite aside from the guilt) were all of us."

Not before they were ready, but by theft. As I outlined above, Genesis is parable. God knew beforehand that man woud attempt this. That is why we are here in this universe.

"let's posit that God is not the author of Evil and that His grace falls on the good and the evil equally, like the rain and always has since the day God created Man."

Why posit, It's a given.

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Matthew 5:45
"that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

I already gave that Enoch and Noah walked with God.

"Now I suspect that most non Reformed Christians would say that those men were on balance good and holy or evil and pernicious because of the exercise of their Free Will. I further suspect that the bishops of the local Council of Orange, when they wrote canon I, knew that as well as you and I do."

They did not. The held, or accepted the position of Augustine. I covered that in #67.

"do you believe that anyone, prior to the Resurrection, succeeded in attaining a state of being like God, of theosis as the Fathers put it, and so after physical death to have received immortality with God?"

On the Earth, no. Are they in Heaven, yes. John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." Also, Lazarus resided in Heaven, per Luke 16. I'll post this caution so that no one might misunderstand. Matt 10:24-25
"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. ...

"the question becomes whether or not the "likeness of God" in which we had been created and in which abides our Free Will, a divine attribute, had been so distorted by the Sin of Adam that no matter how hard we tried to exercise our Free Will in a manner consistent with becoming like God, we simply couldn't because sin and the Evil One had us, even the most holy of us, chained and captive."

The question of whether, or not someone can become like God, requires that they obtain the same knowledge, wisdom and hold the same values that He does. It also requires that they attain the same power to give, not just the gift of life, but eternal life, and do so in a universal way out of love.

Their are barriers placed as per Gen in attaining this. No one mortal can create life on their own, provide for that life and there is the cherubim with the flaming sword, which is the physics of this world. Their is however nothing in their nature, their capacity, that prevents their free will from recognizing good and evil and valuing only the good. All barriers to that are out of the man himself, from his own free will.

God's intent, from the beginning is that the gift of life should be eternal and with Him. God came to teach, to enable us to do so. John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." That draw is the recognition of the Holy Spirit. The presentaiton of the Holy Spirit is grace. Man judges the Holy Spirit according to what they value. The draw is realizaiton and judgement the what the Spirit holds and teaches is good.

The Holy Spirit is the bread prayed for in the Lord's prayer. He is the bread of life. He is the sign of Jonah that was given to all. Matthew 12:39, He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." Judgement of the Holy Spirit by man is the mechanism by which eternal life with God is obtained. Matthew 12:32, "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

98 posted on 11/13/2005 12:13:03 PM PST by spunkets
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To: spunkets; HarleyD; gbcdoj

You know, S, I've believed and believe what my ancestors have believed for about 1700+ years and worship in the same manner as they did. I am marginally familiar with both the OT and the NT and what the Fathers and councils of The Church have to say about the Faith...but you've completely lost me. A bit earlier gbcdoj commented that you were declaring Pelagianism in your posts. About a year ago I commented here on FR that I didn't know much of anything about Pelagianism since it was never an issue in the Eastern Church. If in fact you are a Pelagian, then I must say that a) I know and understand even less about it than I thought and b) I can see why it was condemned as a heresy.

HD, gbcdoj, am I missing something here in my simple Balkan peasant Orthodox ways?


101 posted on 11/13/2005 12:46:24 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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