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You know, S, I've believed and believe what my ancestors have believed for about 1700+ years and worship in the same manner as they did. I am marginally familiar with both the OT and the NT and what the Fathers and councils of The Church have to say about the Faith...but you've completely lost me. A bit earlier gbcdoj commented that you were declaring Pelagianism in your posts. About a year ago I commented here on FR that I didn't know much of anything about Pelagianism since it was never an issue in the Eastern Church. If in fact you are a Pelagian, then I must say that a) I know and understand even less about it than I thought and b) I can see why it was condemned as a heresy.

HD, gbcdoj, am I missing something here in my simple Balkan peasant Orthodox ways?

"About a year ago I commented here on FR that I didn't know much of anything about Pelagianism"

I don't know much about it either. It was brought up once when I denied original sin here once before. From the little I have seen, their appears to be a misunderstanding regarding what grace is. I have already said, that grace is the presentation of the Holy Spirit. It is not some mysterious force from God that alters the nature of man.

The foundation for what I believe is the words of God Himself given in the 4 Gospels and the sign of Jonah. From there I can understand everything else w/o mystery, or contradiction. If I start from another reference nothing is logical.

Pelagians hold that God's grace is just his law and teaching which helps men to make themselves righteous. For the Pelagian, there is no need of grace to heal man's sinful state, making him upright and equipping him for good works. That is why I say that spunkets is a Pelagian. For instance, in his latest post, he remarks: "grace is the presentation of the Holy Spirit. It is not some mysterious force from God that alters the nature of man." So for spunkets, grace is just the Holy Spirit telling men what they should do:

"God's intent, from the beginning is that the gift of life should be eternal and with Him. God came to teach, to enable us to do so. ... That draw is the recognition of the Holy Spirit. The presentaiton of the Holy Spirit is grace. Man judges the Holy Spirit according to what they value. The draw is realizaiton and judgement [that] what the Spirit holds and teaches is good."

Augustine's description of Pelagius' idea of grace corresponds precisely with spunkets' definition:

For that grace and help of God, by which we are assisted in avoiding sin, [Pelagius] places either in nature and free will, or else in the gift of the law and teaching; the result of which of course is this, that whenever God helps a man, He must be supposed to help him to turn away from evil and do good, by revealing to him and teaching him what he ought to do, but not with the additional assistance of His co-operation and inspiration of love, that he may accomplish that which he had discovered it to be his duty to do. (On the Grace of Christ, 3)