Posted on 11/11/2005 5:51:08 AM PST by NYer
So all the passages about Jesus sitting at the right hand as Judge of all, the living and the dead, don't apply to you because you know already how he will judge you? "Welcoming arms" is the posture of a Judge who judges you to be among the sheep. Your very words convict you--you will face him as your Judge but you are convinced that he will judge you not condemned. The question is whether you have a solid basis for that presumption. I think not, you think you do. But you will face him as your Judge, for sure. And if I were you, I'd pay some attention to his (and St. Paul's) explicit warnings against exactly the sort of presumption you harbor. Did it ever occur to you that those who disagree with you, whom you look down at so condescendingly as lacking assurance might be sent by the Judge himself to ask you to reconsider your cocky presumption? Why in the world did he tell those parables about the foolish virgins, about being vigilant because we know not the hour we will be summoned to judgment, about "fear and trembling" (Paul), about being surprised when he says, "I never knew you"? If it's all so easy to be "sure" as you say it is, why did he say those things? They certainly can't be intended for those of us who are disagreeing with you now. They would seem to be aimed precisely at people like you. But then maybe Jesus just said these things for no reason at all.
"This would be easy to do if talked about how God touches our lives"
I bet you are right. What I look for in people is evidence of the reality of the Holy Spirit in their lives. When I see that I am filled with joy - because that is the only thing that counts. As Paul says...
"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."
What I fear for others is that they might have Christian religion without any real relationship with Christ. I do not intend to condem such people, but desire that they come to know Christ for real.
This is not a Prot/Cath/Orth thing. It is a matter of the true conversion of the heart. I know Prot churches that are filled with unconverted folks. They will open their eyes in hell when they die. Likewise, I have met many Catholics who evidenced no true spiritual conversion. Religion, by itself, does not save - only Christ does.
Three weeks ago I went to my 25th Catholic high school reunion, and one of my classmates was on the ground bowing down before a statue of Mary, praying.
I occasionally attend Mass with my in-laws, and I observe many people bowing down before these images while praying.
Just as the Israelites in the wilderness were bowing before the image of the calf yet praying to Baal (not to the calf itself), so too the Second Commandment is God's warning regarding the USE of graven images in worship. You don't like it? Take it up with Him; they're His commandments.
First you say you have eternal security no matter what you do because you're a Christian, then you say if you do bad things you aren't really a Christian and can't therefore have eternal security.
Thanks for blowing a hole into your own argument. Since you are assured that you never will rape or rob someone, you are assured of salvation.
But you will sin, and Christ teaches us that any sin is worthy of damnation. He doesn't teach that His followers are immune from big sins.
Your logic is feeble. You could indeed be a follower of Jesus and commit a horrible sin. You would not be a very good follower, but you would be one. You would need to truly repent in order to attain forgiveness.
Not just point back to the evening years ago when "all that stuff was taken care of."
SD
It is good to work one's salvation out in fear and trembling at times. Just ask St. Paul.
And let us also remember the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector. The pharisee knew he was doing everything right, and the tax collector knew he was a sinner. God loved the repentant attitude of the sinful man best.
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.: John 14:23
Followers of Jesus are expected to exercise self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).
these images were set up in the Temple - with God's approval?
It may be startling (to say the least) to read in 1 Kings 7:25 that the brazen sea - the huge 15-foot diameter basin in the courts of the Temple - was made with graven images of twelve bulls prominently displayed. This should tell us, if nothing else, that God is not displeased by the presence of pictorial representations in holy places. Even when, as in this case, they are graven images identical to those the Israelites periodically worshipped!
Of course those weren't the only graven images in the Temple. You'll also find:
Two fifteen-foot-tall cherubim in the Holy of Holies (1 Kings 6:23-28)
All the Temple's inside walls were covered with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. (1 Kings 6:29)
The doors of the sanctuary and of the inner sanctuary were carved gold-overlaid images of cherubim, palm trees, and flowers (1 Kings 6:32,34)
On the Temple carts, images of bulls and lions. (1 Kings 7:29,36)
and of course the two cherubs on top of the Ark itself!
God sees the difference between graven images in general, and graven images to which one gives worship. Hopefully we can too.
In fact, God has commissioned a number of icons. He commanded Moses to display an icon in Numbers 21:8,9 - God healed the Israelites from snakebite when they looked to the icon of the snake. It was not until a later generation, when the people had named this icon Nehushtan and worshipped it as a god, that it was necessary to destroy it (2 Kings 18:4). At another time, God specifically commanded Ezekiel to paint an icon of the city of Jerusalem and to treat the icon as a symbol of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 4:1ff).
We certainly can't theorize that images are foreign to Biblical prayer and piety. Modern iconoclasm was not a feature of ancient Judaism, nor are images automatically idols. (Which is not to say that abuses never occur, as with the divinely-appointed icon that later became Nehushtan.)
Well, if I did that, then I wouldn't really be a follower of Jesus Christ then, would I?
Follower of Christ? What's that mean? Does that mean DOING things as Christ would do them? Does that mean living as Christ taught to? DOING unto others...? Visiting the imprisoned, the sick, the lonely? Feeding the starving? Showing mercy? Giving alms to the poor?
Essentially, you've just told me that although you say you're saved, you're not a follower of Christ unless you ACT like Christ? That's what Catholics are talking about when we say that faith without works is not faith! You've done a better job of defining the Catholic faith than most Catholics!
Was this directed at me or at Chevypreterist? I agree with what you wrote but I thought CP doesn't.
Have you noticed that the former Catholics (those that left the church) are extremely bitter to the Catholic Church... but the converts who come in to the Catholic Church have nice things to say about their former place of worship? Kind of strange.
You always hear that on the Journey Home program on EWTN.
jcb8199, I recognize and agree with every verse you have mentioned. True conversion is evidenced by continuation in the faith and characterized by a life of love for God and others.
But you can not get around the statement of John. He says it is the very reason he wrote his epistle - that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.
"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
Do you believe that you can know you have eternal life?
Can he still be certain he's going to heaven if he dies as a Catholic, or did he lose his "certain assurance" when he committed the unforgivable sin of Poping?
On the contrary. It is a commandment of God and those who have been born again will desire to follow God's commandments. I do not believe as was pointed out in the Catholic's doctrine that we receive the Holy Spirit through baptism. You are baptized simply because you are a new creature and it is evidence of your rebirth. The only reason I want to be baptized is because God has planted that desire within me.
Additionally, I do not believe you have to maintain your fellowship with God. God does that for you simply because He has given you a new heart and spirit. Old things pass away. All things become new.
Can any of you please explain how man "cooperates" with God in the "new birth" process?
Personally I have found far more evidence of it in my orthodox Parish than I did in Catholic school or my parents protestant church.
I haven't met anyone in our church who doesn't exemply being filled with the holy spirit.
The Catholics and the Orthodox doctrine states that the Holy Spirit comes at Chrismation.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm
http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=52
"In the sacrament of Chrismation we receive "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" (See Rom 8, 1 Cor 6, 2 Cor 1:21-22). If baptism is our personal participation in Easter -- the death and resurrection of Christ, then chrismation is our personal participation in Pentecost -- the coming of the Holy Spirit upon us.
The sacrament of chrismation, also called confirmation, is always done in the Orthodox Church together with baptism. Just as Easter has no meaning for the world without Pentecost, so baptism has no meaning for the Christian without chrismation. In this understanding and practice, the Orthodox Church differs from the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches where the two sacraments are often separated and given other interpretations than those found in traditional Orthodoxy. "
Oh my dear HarleyD, we've been round and round on this before. Do you truly not know how we explain cooperation or are you just baiting us?
I know, I was born and raised Catholic, went to Catholic grammar school, Jesuit college prep and university, attended Mass nearly every Sunday, went through the sacraments, etc. etc. I was proudly Catholic through and through for over 31 years until someone shared the Gospel Of Jesus Christ with me. God used that to call me into His Kingdom. And my lips will praise Him forevermore, because He has given me eternal life through His Son, who took the punishment for my sins on the cross because He loves me so. (According to the scriptures, not just 'cause I say so!)
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