Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?

CERC ^ | FR. WILLIAM SAUNDERS

[Conservative til I die]

Do you deny that the Holy Spirit was sent by Y'shua to illuminate the Word of G-d?

No one denies that. But if true as you see it, why so many different Protestant sects? Obviously, there can be only one Truth. If one believes in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and one doesn't even believe in the Sacrament or believes it's just a symbol, one of them has to be right. And it's not a trivial matter.

Your statement does not touch on authority at all.

Are your views of Scripture or mine on par with Paul or Peter or James or John, just because the Holy Spirit illuminates it?

[Conservative til I die]

Recall during the Mass,

The only problem is that judging by what is said on FR, the vast majority (I'm talking 90%+) of Protestants have never stepped foot in a Church or studied up on Catholicism first hand. It's just a regurgitation of the same polemics found on evangelical "Apologetics" websites and tracts.

[Uri’el-2012]

Are your views of Scripture or mine on par with Paul or Peter or James or John, just because the Holy Spirit illuminates it?

Is that a rhetorical question or do you grieve the Holy Spirit?

b'shem Y'shua

[Uri’el-2012]

Your statement does not touch on authority at all.

Yes it does; the authority of The Father , Abba creator of the universe.

Yes it does: the authority of the Word of G-d , Y'shua.

Yes it does ; the authority of the Ruach haKodesh who was sent by Y'shua to :

John 14:26 But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

b'shem Y'shua

[taxesareforever]

So what happens if you're an unrepentant sinner while believing in Jesus? Let's just say you're a compulsive gambler or an adulterer. Do you go to Heaven same as someone who believes in Jesus and stays on the straight and narrow?

For one thing there is no such thing as an unrepentant believer. If a person believes in Jesus Christ they believe that he died for their sins. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Christ did it all. We sin every day of our lives and to put a question mark on my salvation because I personally did not repent of it before I died is anti-Scriptural. "By grace ye are saved, thru faith...". Everything in this statement has to do with Christ in me. I can do nothing to gain salvation for Christ has done it all.

[Conservative til I die]

Are your views of Scripture or mine on par with Paul or Peter or James or John, just because the Holy Spirit illuminates it? Is that a rhetorical question or do you grieve the Holy Spirit?

Do you still beat your spouse? Don't set up false dichotomies. My question still stands. Is your or my opinion on say, the Canon of Scripture any more or less or equally authoritative as the Apostles and the early Church Fathers that established the Canon? It's a real question, not a rhetorical one.

[Conservative til I die]

Yes it does; the authority of The Father , Abba creator of the universe.

Yes it does: the authority of the Word of G-d , Y'shua.

Yes it does ; the authority of the Ruach haKodesh who was sent by Y'shua to :

That's fine and good, but where did God, Jesus, or the Ruach haKodesh establish the Canon of Scripture? Specifically the New Testament. The NT was written over the course of decades and it was centuries before the Canon was established. There was no document ascribed to God in any of His persons that lists the Canon. And as a Bible-believing Christian, this should be a prerequisite to you.

[Conservative til I die]

So what happens if you're an unrepentant sinner while believing in Jesus? Let's just say you're a compulsive gambler or an adulterer. Do you go to Heaven same as someone who believes in Jesus and stays on the straight and narrow?

For one thing there is no such thing as an unrepentant believer.

Sure there is. If you're speaking in a more philosophical way that it's impossible to be a true believer without good works, well that's really all the Catholic Church is saying. We evidence our faith through our works. If one is without good works, then his faith is not real; "dead" as St. James said.

If a person believes in Jesus Christ they believe that he died for their sins. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Very well, but that does not preclude that person from being a sinner, or an unrepentant one. Like you said, all faith in Christ means is just what you said: believe that he died for their sins.

Christ did it all. We sin every day of our lives and to put a question mark on my salvation because I personally did not repent of it before I died is anti-Scriptural.

So basically you're saying it's OK to be a sinner and an unrepentant one at that, since there's no need to seek forgiveness for the sins that are committed day in and day out.

"By grace ye are saved, thru faith...". Everything in this statement has to do with Christ in me. I can do nothing to gain salvation for Christ has done it all.

It has nothign to do with "earning" or "achieving" salvation. Christ provided that gift to us through His grace. However, we have to accept that gift, and we do so by following His teachings and honoring His commandments to us to be perfect like our Heavenly Father.

Jesus makes a whole lot of points about the need to follow the Commandments, love each other, be charitable to the less fortunate. These are all works.

[taxesareforever]

However, we have to accept that gift, and we do so by following His teachings and honoring His commandments to us to be perfect like our Heavenly Father.

How do we accept that gift? It is thru the Holy Spirit working in us. It has nothing to do with us just as baptism is. It is all God's work thru the Holy Spirit. Can I keep His commandments and teachings? No. That is where Christ intercedes for me and forgives my faults. God forgives my sins every day because I believe in Him. Very well, but that does not preclude that person from being a sinner, or an unrepentant one .

Nothing precludes anyone from being a sinner, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". An unrepentant sinner is an unbeliever. A sinner who believes in Christ as his Saviour is forgiven. Works naturally follow faith, "Faith without works is dead". If two different people make donations to the homeless and one is a believer and the other is an unbeliever are they both considered "good works"? No. Only the believer can do a good works. Even if he does works in a reluctant way or not even realize what he has done, in God's eyes it is a good work because of his faith. It doesn't matter if an unbeliever donated a million dollars to a church it would not be a good work in God's eyes because he does not have faith. If he had faith, it would be considered a good work. Two different people raising families, one has faith and one doesn't. The one that has faith is doing a good work. The unbeliever is not doing a good work in God's eyes.

[Uri’el-2012]

CtId>Your statement does not touch on authority at all.

XS>Yes it does; the authority of The Father , Abba creator of the universe.

Yes it does: the authority of the Word of G-d , Y'shua.

Yes it does ; the authority of the Ruach haKodesh who was sent by Y'shua to :

John 14:26 But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

b'shem Y'shua

CtId> That's fine and good, but where did God, Jesus, or the Ruach haKodesh establish the Canon of Scripture? Specifically the New Testament. The NT was written over the course of decades and it was centuries before the Canon was established. There was no document ascribed to God in any of His persons that lists the Canon. And as a Bible-believing Christian, this should be a prerequisite to you.

Does the quote from Y'shua haMashiach mean nothing to you?

Y'shua is clearly saying, as noted by John, that the Holy Spirit,
Ruach haKodesh will "inspire" each and everyone of us
and remind us as to what Y'shua said.

Do you think just because men were members of a "man-made" corporation
that they themselves developed the Canon?

Or do you believe that the Holy Spirit, Ruach haKodesh, inspired them to select the Canon?

Do you not believe that G-d is all powerful and has created the entire universe and exists outside ALL time and space?
Or do you believe that G-d created a "man-made" corporation and He retired to let a "man-made" corporation do all the works replacing G-d?

b'shem Y'shua

[Uri’el-2012]

Are your views of Scripture or mine on par with Paul or Peter or James or John, just because the Holy Spirit illuminates it?

XS> Is that a rhetorical question or do you grieve the Holy Spirit?

Do you still beat your spouse? Don't set up false dichotomies. My question still stands. Is your or my opinion on say, the Canon of Scripture any more or less or equally authoritative as the Apostles and the early Church Fathers that established the Canon? It's a real question, not a rhetorical one.

I believe that G-d is all powerful and as the creator of the universe can inspire each of His creations and does not depend on a "man-made" corporation to speak for Him.

Abba has given us His Son, Y'shua the Holy Word of G-d to speak to us.

Y'shua did not remove one form of priesthood to replace it with another created by man.

Y'shua is our High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

We need no other priest.

We are permitted to have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe through Y'shua.

b'shem Y'shua

[IIntense]

Dear Diva, You responded to my post re: a previous requirement that women were required to wear hats to church. What law of God that is based on, if any, I don't know, but it was taught as a "must" by the nuns, to the extent that they considered it a sin not to do so. Looking back upon the message given, and a few others I could add, plenty of people, especially women, I think, believe they were intimidated unjustifiably.

The majority of females do not wear hats to Mass anymore. For those who want to, I say, go for it. Will the hatless females have to spend time in Purgatory for their "transgressions"?

If I could convince myself that is true, I'd plop a hat on my head as soon as I woke up, wear it all day, and switch to a nightcap before I went to bed. JUST TO BE ON THE SAFE SIDE...LOL.

I know many Catholics who cannot agree 100% with the teachings of the Catholic hierarchy. It is not necessarily because Church teaching won't sanction a personal desire they have. The God-given intellect of people (some received different gifts) precludes their ability to accept what is not logical to them. While not challenging the Word of God, they question the conclusions of human beings who have declared what they must believe.

You chose to respond to me by bringing up a couple of gals who wear hats to church! You also indicated you had some problems, or whatever, with the Church, but the last 10 years have been good. I'm really glad for that.

The message I get from you, and believe me, you are not alone, is that anyone who has an honest and sincere question in regard to Church teachings, is out and out WRONG! Sorry. I don't believe that most Catholics today walk an unwavering path on Catholic teaching; in other words, have total allegiance to everything the Church demands of them.

I shouldn't be surprised by your asking if I left the Catholic Church. If my answer was "yes", you could say to yourself, "Aha, I KNEW it." You could satisfy yourself that you were right, that any thoughts of mine deserve to be ignored. To ask me (or anyone) if I have left the Catholic Church is an obvious tactic by which one can avoid thoughtful insight into the subject. To put it another way, all Catholics are required to have blind faith in every teaching put forth by the Catholic Church. For all those who don't, and I know are many, rather than address actual questions, you ask if they have left the Catholic Church. It's an evasion of the questions.

Nevertheless I will answer you. No, I have not left the Catholic Church. I am and expect always to be a Catholic. While I don't like to use the word "never" regarding anything in life, I will say that I don't believe I will ever embrace another religion, and I clearly know why. Problems within any worthwhile institution are best addressed from within it. Walking away, in this case, is not an option.

[Diva]

You are reading way too much into my posts and you need to step back and relax. What difference does it make if people on this thread or on Freerepublic disagree with things that you say? If you feel you are correct why does it seem to bother you so much? I asked if you had left the Church because I wasn't sure. I have friends who have not gone to Mass in years and they still consider themselves to be Catholic.

[Nihil Obstat]

Wow, you are intense!

[IIntense]

Yes, I am. Born-in personality. Have you considered, also, the passion put forth by so many here who have no tolerance for anyone of the Catholic faith who, God forbid, just may have a reasonable thought of their own?

Frankly it strikes me as hypocritical, though I don't really want to judge them.

I think there are so many Catholics who consider themselves as such, yet do not agree with the Church's teaching from A to Z. A quick example is the use of artificial birth control. Do the majority of US Catholics (I'll focus on this country) shun artificial birth control? If you're answer is "no", then we are speaking of so-called Catholics who have made up their own rules. That is just one example of those who are critized for picking and choosing what is convenient to them. Rightly or wrongly, the Church is full of those who don't buy the whole package. And these are many of the same people you will see at Mass every Sunday.

[Nihil Obstat]

You are absolutely correct! Artificial birth control is a scourge on this country. I would guess probably 85% of "catholic" couples use artificial birth control. (Mostly because they were not told it is a sin - it's hardly ever preached.)

Artificial birth control has led to premarital sex, acceptance of abortion, extra-marital affairs, divorce, less vocations, etc, etc, etc.

Jesus said to enter through the narrow gate. People just calling themselves catholic is for sure no guarantee of salvation. But he also promised that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against the church. Those who stick to the actual teachings of the church have that assurance.

Some people focus on a lot of the cultural secondary things, (like headcoverings for example) that aren't part of the true core teachings and ignore the encyclicals and the actual teachings. (A lot of religious sisters are very susceptible to that. Look at the ones protesting at army bases and not at abortion clinics.)

Intensity is a great personality trait. Think of Jesus in the temple. A lot of people sit around like frogs in the pot not noticing the water's starting to boil. I re-read your last paragraph in post #112. That is beautiful.

Stay intense. God bless you!

[Salvation]

BTTT!