Interview with George Barna on the book Revolution (tadical changes among US Christians)

Christianbook.com: Briefly describe the Revolution that is taking place in the Kingdom of God.

George Barna: There is an enormous, and growing, body of Christians in this country who love God and want more of Him in their life, but cannot satisfy that need through the local church or the other means they have relied upon. Consequently, they put together a series of relationships that enable them to get more of God in their life, and to be the Church rather simply go to church. Our research shows that these folks tend to emphasize their spiritual life in terms of seven distinct spiritual passions: intimate worship, faith-based conversations, intentional spiritual growth, servanthood, kingdom-focused resource investment, spiritual friendships, and family faith experiences and expression. Those tend to be the areas that Revolutionaries invest themselves in so that they may remain robust in their faith development.

Christianbook.com: What are some of the "established systems" that the revolutionaries are trying to overthrow? What types of systems structures are likely to replace the current focus on congregational churches?

George Barna: Revolutionaries are more interested in transformation than organizational efficiency or stability. We are finding that a large share of them have chosen to be less involved in a congregational church in favor of participating in alternatives such as house or organic churches, cyberchurches, marketplace ministries and even a wide variety of spiritual events that draw them closer to God and other believers without requiring or fostering a more deliberate commitment to the sponsoring organization. In an ideal environment, the family would be the central "church" unit, but we find that the family serves that function for only about 5% of the American public, and we do not anticipate that growing in the near future.

Christianbook.com: Over the past couple of years the development of the emerging church and the writings of Brian McLaren and others has provoked a lot of criticism and critique. Is the emerging church phenomena an expression of the revolution or is it something else?

George Barna: In some cases it is, in other cases it is not. We have examined some "emerging churches" in which all that has changed is they switched out the chandeliers for candles, the pews for couches, choirs and bands for acoustic music, and the stale church-made coffee for premium Starbucks blends. Some of the emerging churches, however, have caught the bug and are truly focused on helping each individual be with God more consistently and meaningfully. The Revolution is not about closing down churches, per se, but about reorienting our lives to God. If a local church can facilitate it, that’s great; if it cannot, then there are viable alternatives, some of which fit in the ill-defined "emerging church" category.

Christianbook.com: It seems to me that the revolutionaries conceive of their faith as a journey instead of a foundation of fundamental beliefs. If this is indeed the case, what are some of the implications of this re-envisioning?

George Barna: Their faith is about being a Christian who honors God at all times, in all ways, rather than being a member of an organization, or completing a program. It is about developing and maintaining genuine faith-based relationships that keep them solid and moving forward in their faith, rather than being seen at the right events. It is about being intentional in their spiritual growth, rather than showing up and allowing someone else to provide information and exercises that may not have anything to do with where they are in their journey and how they need to grow. It is about being more knowledgeable regarding ways of connecting their resource investment with what God is revealing to them about themselves and the world. For existing local churches, this means that there will perhaps be fewer programs that are sustained, less consistency in attendance, and greater demands for faith experiences that recognize individual needs and abilities.

Christianbook.com: On a number of occasions throughout the book you confess that you are frustrated by the failure of the contemporary church to develop disciples who have a biblical world view and are actively incarnating the grace and truth of God in their particular contexts. How did your frustrations with the contemporary church influence your understanding and embrace of the revolution?

George Barna: The frustrations forced me to explore the transformation process more closely. In doing the research on who has been transformed and how, I found that more often than not the transformation was triggered and nurtured by groups of disciples outside of a local church. It was what we label "spiritual mini-movements" – things like the home schooling community, the prayer networks, the spiritual disciplines groups, Christian creative arts guilds, and others. Their dominant focus was knowing, loving and serving God – and the result was substantially changed lives, with all of that change happening outside of the activities of the local church those people were engaged in. The research showed that after trying to incorporate some of their experiences into the life of their local church, they typically give up and simply pursue God without the congregation, which was generally more of a hindrance to their quest for God than a help in that process. Studying this process was encouraging to me, reminding me that the Bible does command us to go to church but to be the Church. Seeing that in action, in the lives of these people, was moving and motivating.

Christianbook.com: You assert that the revolutionaries are deeply interested in the principles and practices of the early church. What ancient principles and practices will the revolutionaries reintroduce to the contemporary Church?

George Barna: It varies from person to person. Some of the organic churches – house churches, simple churches, marketplace gatherings – have creeds, others don’t. Some develop their own rituals, others don’t. Some become very radical – relocating to urban or impoverished areas, or investing their money for kingdom purposes in very challenging ways – but others don’t. What seems most attractive to them is building a sense of community around their faith in Christ as a starting point, and then striving to listen to and be radically obedient to His daily call to be the Church. The difficulty of studying something like this revolution of faith is that it takes on so many forms and shapes that you cannot get a very firm fix on it, from a structural angle. You recognize it it primarily in terms of the fruit of people’s lives, and can backtrack from the product and see that it was a complete rethinking of their Christian life and connections that facilitated such a laudable result.

Christianbook.com: The revolutionaries often position themselves outside of traditional structures because they want a deeper connection with God and His community. Could we say that the focus of revolutionaries is more communal than it is anti-institutional?

George Barna: Definitely. They are pro-God, pro-kingdom, pro-Church. They are not anti-local church or anti-denominational or anti-religion. They have struggled to get their priorities right, and typically find that they need to fine tune some of their relationships and commitments in order to be a functional follower of Christ and a vibrant part of a community of vibrant believers. Usually they are so stoked about their experience with God, through their new channels of experience and expression, that they don’t waste their energy and resources trying to tear down the congregational church, but strive to emphasize what is good and fruitful in their own life. I think that, in itself, is a mark of maturity and health.

Christianbook.com: Why is it important for us to reclaim the family as a primary context for developing faith experience and expression?

George Barna: First of all, the Scriptures teach us that this was what God intended. From our earliest years, it should be a constant and consistent experience within our family that makes God central and real to us. Second, our research convincingly shows that what a person believes about God, the Church, the Bible and faith by age 13 is generally what they die believing. So having the most important influencers in a young person’s life – their parents – promoting that depth of relationship with Christ is crucial. Finally, we know that there are things the family can facilitate that no other organization or set of relationships can foster. The fact that fewer than one out of every ten families headed by born again parents engage in spiritual activities as a family during a typical month speaks to the ill health of both the local church and the family in our nation.

Christianbook.com: A number of contemporary pastors and theologians have talked about an immanent shift from an institutional church to missional communities. Is this supposed shift towards missional communities an impetus of the "macro" and "micro" models of church that you discuss?

George Barna: I cannot speak for those who have talked about such a shift, but we have seen in our research that millions of Revolutionaries are, in fact, driven by a desire to be more intentional and hands on in ministry. They want less of a separation between their spiritual self and the rest of their being. Similarly, they seek less of a division between the activity of their faith community and the rest of their daily experience.

Christianbook.com: How can the contemporary church create more revolutionaries among those who do not, and perhaps never will, identify with our faith community?

George Barna: One of the advantages that the Revolution has is that it is built on meeting personal spiritual needs and is formed around a person’s natural network of relationships. Because Revolutionaries are driven to love God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul, and they are not confined by programs or places, they have the opportunity to guide outsiders into a faith journey that fits who they are, rather than attempting to force them into a pattern that requires them to conform to something they don’t understand or that does not fit their life. If each Revolutionary sees himself or herself as the Church in action, they feel a greater responsibility for helping others to find and to pursue Jesus Christ in meaningful ways.

Christianbook.com: The revolutionaries highly emphasize and readily embrace the priesthood of all believers. How will this emphasis affect the mission of the church and alter our current focus on full-time pastors and other financially compensated Christian workers?

George Barna: There will still be full-time professional Christian workers at the remaining congregational churches, and there will be individuals who perform fulltime Christian service in parachurch settings. Many others will pursue advanced training in ministry for their own benefit or for the benefit of the ministries they feel called to lead, even though it may be positions they fill that are neither fulltime nor paid. Their interest is being the most effective servant of God they can be, which may require additional education or training. Ultimately, we anticipate the ranks of the fulltime paid professional pastorate to decrease by about one-quarter of the current level within the next 25 years.

Christianbook.com: You believe that the revolution will be met with a wide resistance by the established church. Why will the established church see the revolution as a threat? Moreover, how can revolutionaries respond to this resistance in a Christ-like way?

George Barna: Massive change always brings massive resistance from that which is being changed. The congregational church currently measures success by counting heads, dollars and programs. The Revolution will decrease those numbers, causing many pastors and congregants to see the Revolution in negative terms. The best response for Revolutionaries is to be Christ-like: love those who persecute you for your faith in Christ, bear fruit for the kingdom, and keep your eyes on Jesus. The Revolution could become one of the most freeing and beneficial transitions for congregations that has emerged in many years, if the mind set of its leaders can be to work with Revolutionaries and harness their energy for God. How the Revolution affects a local church will depend upon the vision and flexibility of its leaders. Good leaders will see this as a challenge and opportunity; ineffective, shortsighted leaders will see this as a threat. The Revolution does have its own challenges, but the potential for spiritual growth that it represents is awesome.

Christianbook.com: The Barna Group has provided consulting for many of the mainstream mega-churches that you think might become monuments to the past. How have the leaders of these congregations responded to Revolution?

George Barna: Some have embraced it with enthusiasm, seeking to understand how to restructure and reformulate their ministries to enable the positive elements of the Revolution influence their church, and to help Revolutionaries in their Christ quest. Others have labeled it a heretical, unbiblical movement of church haters and people of questionable faith. I’ve had to sit through some real scorching tongue-lashings from well-intentioned pastors who believe the existing form of the local church is described in the Bible, that alternative forms of pursuing God are indefensible and that the Senior Pastor is God’s authority who is not to be dismissed or ignored by people. There will be some megachurches in the future, but 25 years from now many of today’s megachurch campuses will be strip malls or public buildings used for non-religious purposes.

Christianbook.com: You readily admit that you are a revolutionary and you appear to be fully invested in this next movement of the church. What role are you planning to play in the ongoing revolution? Can we expect additional books and resources that will focus on and foster the development of the revolution?

George Barna: God’s vision for my life is to facilitate a moral and spiritual revolution in the United States. I have been saying and writing that – and pursuing – that for more than 20 years. My first thrust was to assist local churches in facilitating that transformation. My current approach is to not only assist local churches that have a congregational, programmatic approach, but to expand my efforts to inform, resource and guide alternative approaches for those who are intent upon honoring God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul. Toward that end, we will try to provide resources that point people in an appropriate direction on their faith journey. The website we’re creating for Revolutionaries will enable them to connect with others moving in the same direction, to identify people and places that might enhance their Christ-quest, and to encourage them to lead a life that places God and His principles first and foremost. There will be books, not just by me, but by other leading Revolutionaries, through the BarnaBooks line published through Tyndale House. We are not abandoning the local church. We’re simply expanding the role of our company and its ministry partners to help people for whom the local church does not meet their intense need to have more of God in their life.

Christianbook.com: Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to speak with us. We hope that Revolution introduces thousands of readers to the new work that God is doing in the church and encourages revolutionaries to continue creating Christian communities and creatively proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Information about the book Revolution by George Barna, from the publisher Tyndale:

http://www.tyndale.com/products/details.asp?isbn=1-4143-0758-6

Summary

World-renowned pollster George Barna has the numbers, and they indicate a revolution is already taking place within the Church--one that will impact every believer in America. Committed, born-again Christians are exiting the established church in massive numbers. Why are they leaving? Where are they going? And what does this mean for the future of the Church? Using years' worth of research data, and adhering to an unwavering biblical perspective, Barna predicts how this revolution will impact the organized church, how Christ's body of believers should react, and how individuals who are considering leaving (or those who have already left) can respond. For leaders working for positive change in the church and for believers struggling to find a spiritual community and worship experience that resonates, Revolution is here. Are you ready?

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Back Cover Copy

Millions of believers have stopped going to church...and chosen to be the church instead.

Research by renowned pollster George Barna points to a hidden Revolution—one that will impact every Christian believer in America. Millions of committed Christ-followers, dissatisfied with the church experience, have stopped attending on Sunday mornings. Why are they leaving? Where are they going? And what does this mean for the future of the church?

In this groundbreaking book, Barna examines the state of the church today—and compares it to the biblical picture of the church as God intended it to be. He documents how and why a new brand of devout “Revolutionaries” is abandoning the local church building while attempting to become the church that Christ commissioned us to be.

This Revolution will challenge you with

* the straightforward biblical guidelines for the church * 7 core passions of a Revolutionary * a daring redefinition of the church as we know it.

Maybe you’re afraid of the changes to come. Maybe you’ve been waiting for this moment to arrive. Either way, the Revolution is here.

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Front Flap Copy

rev-o-lu-tion \rev-e-lü–shen\ n—repudiating tepid systems and practices of the Christian faith and introducing a wholesale shift in how faith is understood, integrated and influencing the world

A Revolution is a fundamental change. A paradigm shift in the way a person views and interacts with his or her world. According to years’ worth of data collected by George Barna, the church is about to see the biggest Revolution of our time.

For thousands of years, Christians have been inventing church, but neglecting to be the church Christ commissioned. Droves of committed believers are foregoing Sunday mornings to live a 24/7 faith unfettered by the clutter and bureaucracy within the church walls.

In stark contrast to both the stuffy, formulaic religiosity sometimes found in the established church and the feel-good, invent-your-own spirituality, the Revolution is casting off anything that hinders a full, vibrant life of discipleship to Christ.

Millions of believers have stopped going to church...and chosen to be the church instead. Research by renowned pollster George Barna points to a hidden Revolution—one that will impact every Christian believer in America. Millions of committed Christ-followers, dissatisfied with the church experience, have stopped attending on Sunday mornings. Why are they leaving? Where are they going? And what does this mean for the future of the church? In this groundbreaking book, Barna examines the state of the church today—and compares it to the biblical picture of the church as God intended it to be. He documents how and why a new brand of devout “Revolutionaries” is abandoning the local church building while attempting to become the church that Christ commissioned us to be.

Great article. I'm one of these people. I almost never attend church, yet I have a stronger walk and faith in the Lord now that I'm apart from organized church services. I see Him moving stronger in my life without the organized church services. I believe, it is the way of Christianity in the future, and I'm looking forward to it.

I have found so many church systems/denominations to be contrary to a close walk with Christ, ironically, including the ones that proclaim "the whole counsel of God" etc... And now, I'm closer to the Lord without them

I am part of the Revolution for all the reasons you mention, and I know that I am not alone.

I am not casting aspersions on any but churches services have gotten too controlled.

Announcements, worship...3 fast, 2 slow...sermon..45 minutes...on to the coffee room

What would happen if the Holy Spirit was given complete control and He wanted service to be 60 minutes (or more!) of nothing but worship!

No announcements, sermon.... just worship and then WAITING ON THE LORD.... quiet.... listening or basking in the presence of the Lord...being renewed and fed by His Love.....

And what if the sermon focused on who He is instead of what He can do

His glory, His power, His majesty

I am having church in my home with some friends right now, sitting cross-legg on the floor…worshiping…waiting…focusing on Him…allowing Him to do as He wishes

I am not saying I will never to back to church but I know I am not the only one and that the Lord is in this “Revolution”

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Interesting article. I will say I would fall into both categories. At the risk of sounding judgmental I find the doctrinal information and spiritual building found in most churches today to be inadequate. I suspect it has been this way for many years. The Navigators and Campus Crusade for Christ were created for the purpose of equipping the saints and reaching out to the community; something they felt was missing from the traditional church about 50 years ago. However, the principles of the Navigators and CCC were to place established leaders who would train and build other leaders. They always worked hand-in-hand with traditional churches.

I have been in some of these revolutionary programs. The ones that I’ve been in I have found the leaders are not grounded in their understanding of God’s word. I remember one group was studying Amos and trying to apply spiritual meaning to some obscured passages. They went around and asked each of us what we thought the passage meant to us. This was, IMO, a terrible way to study God’s word. I’m not saying they’re all like this but understanding God’s word is more involved than simply looking at a passage and guessing on its meaning. In another case when we got together we spent a little time in prayer and much time in socializing.

There is a danger in rejecting traditions to “experience” God. This is nothing more than spiritualism. The way God talks to us is through His word. The way we talk to God is through prayer. God tells us to pray for wisdom. Not to understand traditions set down throughout church history or to reject it for some “new” practice is dangerous.

I personally see that Barna repudiates both the Joel Osteen way and the much of the Reformed church way.

We were discussing something similar in Sunday School this last week. According to Barna 87 percent of American state they believe in God. 50 percent state they are evangelical Christians. 37 percent (not necessarily all Christians) state they have had more than 15 sexual partners within the last year, the Christian divorce rate mirrors society and just slightly less than 50 percent believe in abortion. What people are saying and what people are doing don't match.

Quite frankly I'm not sure I buy into all this "I want to get close to God" talk. I don't expect monestaries to start cropping up but if Christians were truly living the godly life that we claim we want to live, I think our society would mirror that lifestyle and God would bless. I hate to damper Barna's idealistic assessment but I think Christians today want to have a "spiritual experience" no matter how they live their lives-no matter where they go or don't go to church. That is what the statistics really are saying.

Due to my face being so horribly disfigured I become the center of attention, not the preacher,

My wife read your post and asked me to tell you her story.

My wife Priscilla was in a fire accident when she was three. She is badly scarred from the waist down and because there was much muscle damage, her legs are also badly disfigured.

Her father was a Baptist pastor. His church was one of those where you had to wear your "Sunday best" and women and girls were allowed to wear only dresses. She hated being gawked at by the older people and teased by the children, but her father insisted she wear a dress. And though she had a love for God, the church left a bad taste in her mouth.

We have three children and all of their lives they have went to church, though we did not. Occasionally we would have to go because of some special event our children were in. When we did she always felt so out of place because she wore slacks.

After our children were grown, I had one of those life changing moments where I knew I had to turn my life over to God. (I will spare you that story for another time.) One Sunday morning after that I asked my wife if she would be willing to go to church with me. After the initial shock (that HER HUSBAND would WANT to go to CHURCH) wore off, Priscilla said, "If you can find a church where they don't care if I wear blue jeans, I will go." Knowing my wife well, I had anticipated her answer and told her that I had already found a bible believing church nearby that allowed casual dress. So we got dressed in our Sunday best jeans and off we went.

When we got to the church we found that "casual dress" mostly meant business casual for the adults and jeans for the teens and under. Nearly all of the women wore dresses and quite a few of the men were wearing suits. But no one seemed bothered by the way we looked and no one said anything so we kept attending every Sunday.

After I was saved, I was to be baptized. Priscilla was baptized as a teen, but said that she wanted to be baptized with me, because she said that everything felt different this time, it felt real this time.

Our church does baptisms at a local park on the lake. It was a great day and everyone from church was there. Our children had also come. Before the baptisms we sang songs, did worship and prayer, then everyone being baptized got to tell how they come to Jesus and how they came to our church. Priscilla stood before them and told them how her legs had been scarred. She told them of her father's church and the hurt it had caused her. And she told them how we had found our church where none of that seemed to matter. There were many tears among everyone, lots of hugs and a chorus of "Praise God".

As we made our way to the lake, all of those who were being baptized were wearing bathing suits and tee shirts, except Priscilla. She wore her bathing suit with her blue jeans over them and intended to be baptized that way. But as we got to the edge of the lake, she stopped me, and held to my shoulder while she slipped out of her jeans. For the first time in over 25 years Priscilla let someone other than her family see her very white and very purple, scarred and misshapen legs. We went out into the water, were baptized together and when we returned to the shore she immediately slipped back into her jeans.

By taking off her jeans, she had made a leap of faith. A leap of faith not in just God, but in the Body of Christ. That they could see her just as He does.

The next Sunday we went to church and were socializing before the service. All of a sudden Priscilla started crying and trying to tell me something. I had to calm her down a bit before I could understand what she was saying. She told me, "look, they are wearing jeans." I looked around and sure enough almost every man and woman in the church had come wearing blue jeans and there wasn't a suit and tie to be found.

Now they did not get together and all decide to were jeans. There was no conspiracy. God had touched each individual heart and showed them what truly mattered.

To this day we are affectionately known by our church as "the blue jean people" and my wife is "the blue jean lady". And if you ask our pastor why the dress at our church has become so lax, he will gladly tell you Priscilla's story.

IN the isolation society places on those who look different Jesus pipes right up and declares, "So what!! You got Me... ."

With God we, like Him, can find beauty in all things. People can be very loving and understanding if given the chance.

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