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Medieval Mistakes
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| Winter, 2002
| Sinclair Ferguson
Posted on 10/21/2005 5:37:01 AM PDT by sheltonmac
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To: HarleyD
"No one denies "free will"
[You've argued both for and against free will on this thread, so I'm trying to clarify.]
Nonsense.
To avoid any confusion with my inadequate language here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith states:
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.
And then there is that thing with God's grace saves us but we have free will and must cooperate with God. __Oh foolish Harley. Who has bewitched you?
Understanding this concept I would agree with Dr. E that man does not have free will.
The problem I find is that most people do not understand this concept.
As soon as someone makes a statement man doesnt have free will (as I use to do) everyone goes hyper.
So Harley, just to clarify, do you or don't you believe that you have free will? Given a choice between choicing good or evil, do you believe that you can indeed make such a choice?
521
posted on
11/15/2005 3:16:30 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: Dr. Eckleburg
"The same way evil can exist by the determinant will of God, yet God commits no evil. "
"However, because Scripture tells us all things were made by God, it follows that all things came into existence by His will, for His glory."
DE, you've argued that God is the Creator of Evil. Do you mean that God permits evil to exist, or are you suggesting that He actually wants it to exist?
Also, if I've understand you correctly, you believe that God cannot lie, but God creates lies by willing them? That is, God Himself doesn't lie, but he forces men to lie because he has complete control of their wills? Have I understood you correctly?
Also, do you believe that crediting man with the creation of evil instead of God is an insult to the omnipotence of God? Finally, do you believe that when you sin, you are doing what God wants you to do?
522
posted on
11/15/2005 3:29:47 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
I thought I posted this once before but just in case I didn't here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith states about "free will".
Chapter IX Of Free Will
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]
[1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
[2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
The part you and most other people seem to not understand is that if God clears the fog and gives you a choice between heaven and hell, man will always choose heaven. This to me should be a no brainer. Yet there are many people who will argue that man, given the choice and true understanding, willfully will choose hell.
It is far more important to protect the heretical notion of man's "free will" than to acknowledge God's sovereign control over our salvation.
523
posted on
11/15/2005 3:54:06 PM PST
by
HarleyD
("For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Lk 19:10 - Did He do it?)
To: HarleyD
Harely,
Thanks for reposting the Westminster Confessions on Free Will. Paragraph IV unambiguously teaches that man has the free will to choose between good and evil. That is, that man has free will, and that his will is free to either will evil or to will good. Would you agree with this interpretation?
524
posted on
11/15/2005 4:24:12 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
Paragraph IV unambiguously teaches that man has the free will to choose between good and evil. That is, that man has free will, and that his will is free to either will evil or to will good. Would you agree with this interpretation? Yes, I would agree with Paragraph IV. I would also agree with Paragraph III of the WCF which states
Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation
The Council of Trent states man must cooperate. The WCF states that it is God who restores; there is no cooperation. Man will never do or even cooperate with God. No one does what is righteous. God must solely restore mans ability of the will to make the right spiritual choices. And, before you go there, wouldn't you agree that it is NOT the right spiritual choice to reject God? We know from 1 John 5:1 that everyone who believe Jesus is the Christ has been born of God so we can logically conclude that those who do not believe Jesus is the Christ has not been born of God..
Man is born again when God releases the bondage man is under and accepts Jesus as the Christ. Man is free to make good and bad choices under Gods guidance. We become children of God-slaves to righteousness. But that is another post.
525
posted on
11/15/2005 5:37:29 PM PST
by
HarleyD
("For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Lk 19:10 - Did He do it?)
To: InterestedQuestioner
IQ,
Your comments are interesting. I'll try to clarify where we agree/disagree because I disagree with your reasoning that we are on the same plane with Adam & Eve.
Adam and Eve were given a single commandment: " but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." They were also given the freedom to either obey or disobey God. Agree.
Through our ancestor's sin, our relationship to God was severely damaged, but the choices that are put before us are fundamentally the same. Agree.. The choice, to sin or not to sin, is still the same but the ability that Adam & Eve had to not sin, no longer exists in an unregenerate person. The severe damage caused by the fall affected the whole person - will, mind, heart, & body. This is what is meant by Total Depravity, a misunderstood term that many think means utter depravity. Severe damage that goes to the root of our being.
The reason that the Fall is hard to explain to man's satisfaction is because man wants to know "why." God is not the author of evil, yet he made a tree of knowledge of good & evil and he made Adam & Eve with the ability to sin. I appreciate what you said that Thomas Aquinas wrote, because I believe that what he wrote is the best explanation. God was not surprised by the Fall and he already knew the remedy. It is for his glory.
our sins are our own--we will the evil Agree. Just as you stated, God permits us to sin, but the sin is our own.
At the basis of our Faith is our commitment to believe that God IS good, and that God wills only what is good for us Agree totally.
526
posted on
11/15/2005 5:41:34 PM PST
by
suzyjaruki
("What do you seek?")
To: suzyjaruki
Suzy,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
"The severe damage caused by the fall affected the whole person - will, mind, heart, & body."
That's my understanding as well.
"This is what is meant by Total Depravity, a misunderstood term that many think means utter depravity. Severe damage that goes to the root of our being."
I think there is a tendency by many to interpret the term "total depravity" to mean that man is as bad as he possibly could be. I don't think this is necessarily what is meant, however, by the people who use the term. When I hear the term "total depravity" I translate that to mean total inability of man to come to God without the grace of God. Does that fit with what you mean when you use that term?
527
posted on
11/15/2005 6:31:34 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: HarleyD
"Yes, I would agree with Paragraph IV."
Thanks Harley. What I am specifically asking is this: do you agree that Paragraph IV of the Westminster Confessions is teaching that man does indeed have free will, such that he is free to choose between good and evil, at least in a regenerate state?
The part you and most other people seem to not understand is that if God clears the fog and gives you a choice between heaven and hell, man will always choose heaven.
You're speaking here of the individual making a choice between heaven and hell. How, in your opinion, does an individual make a choice to go to Heaven? How does an individual make a choice to go to Hell?
528
posted on
11/15/2005 6:41:49 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
"How, in your opinion, does an individual make a choice to go to Heaven? How does an individual make a choice to go to Hell?" No one makes a decision to go to Hell. All men are destined for Hell to begin with. As far as Heaven, God opens the heart so that it isn't rebellious and then ask, "Do you want to go the heaven or do you want an eternal life of torment?" This isn't a "rocket science" decision by us.
A woman named Lydia... was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14
The problem most people have is that God doesn't open up everyone's heart.
529
posted on
11/16/2005 7:14:34 AM PST
by
HarleyD
("For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Lk 19:10 - Did He do it?)
To: HarleyD
As far as Heaven, God opens the heart so that it isn't rebellious and then ask, "Do you want to go the heaven or do you want an eternal life of torment?"
No one makes a decision to go to Hell.
So, in this framing of free will, you are either given free will, or you are not. Only regenerate man actually has the freedom to choose between good and evil, but he will only use it to choose that which is good. That is to say, he will always choose correctly.
"If I am led by God's Spirit I will make the right decisions and bring glory to God. If I choose wrongly God will chastise me and put me back on the right course."
So when you choose not to be led by the Gods Spirit, you are nonetheless, still choosing to go to heaven? Or is your choice to not be led by the Spirit of God irrelevant with regards to choosing heaven or hell? That is, whether or not one refuses to be led by the Spirit of God is irrelevant from a point of salvation. What, specifically, are you choosing when you choose to not be led by the Spirit of God?
530
posted on
11/16/2005 4:46:22 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
So, in this framing of free will, you are either given free will, or you are not. Only regenerate man actually has the freedom to choose between good and evil, but he will only use it to choose that which is good. That is to say, he will always choose correctly. You could put it that way but I don't like the term "free will". Salvation is a GIFT from God and the Son must set you free. The Holy Spirit is sealed inside as our guarantee of our inheritance but also to guide and direct our lifes to do God's will.
So when you choose not to be led by the Gods Spirit, you are nonetheless, still choosing to go to heaven?
The choice has already been made. You are "born again". You can't be unborn. When you choose not to be led by the Holy Spirit you are rebellious and subject to God's chastisement.
Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
Christians will grow in grace albeit some at different speeds than others according to the measure of faith given to them.
531
posted on
11/16/2005 5:09:07 PM PST
by
HarleyD
(Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
To: HarleyD
"The choice has already been made."
What choice have you made in this scenario? I don't see any room for choice in this formulation. Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.
Man is created for hell. God saves some by choosing to give some, but not all men, free will. The people who do not receive free will cannot possibly follow the Spirit of God, and so these people are punished for what they are inherently incapble of doing. They are sent to hell because they are wicked.
Other men are given free will. They can then use this God-given freedom to refuse to obey God. Instead of being punished for disobeying God, (like those who have no choice but to disobey God) however, the ones who choose to disobey God of their own free will go to heaven. In this scenario, God is completely indifferent to the actions of men.
He punishes those who do not choose to disobey him, but does not punish those who choose to disobey Him. Have I understood your views correctly?
How do you propose to square this with the Epistle to the Romans, ch 2?
"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things. Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Romans 2: 1-16)
I don't need to point out to you that the Scripture is quite clear that it is on the basis of man's actions that God will judge him. To those who do evil (sin/refuse to be led by the Holy Spirit) God will inflict wrath and fury. To those who do good in the pursuit of immortality, God will grant eternal life. In the teachings of Scripture, God shows no partiality among men.
Now match this to the Westminster Confessions on Free Will, paragraph IV:
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone,
enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good,
but does also will that which is evil.[10]
Now, it seems to me that a reasonable reading is that the Westminster Confessions is teaching that Man has free will, and can freely choose to do good or evil, at least in the case of the regenerate man. According to the Epistle to the Romans Ch 2, if he chooses to sin (to refuse to be led by the Spirit of God) then he is choosing God's wrath and fury. Does that seem like a reasonable reading to you?
532
posted on
11/16/2005 7:22:27 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
I would make the following change.
Man is created destined for hell. God saves some by choosing to give some, but not all men, free will.
The people who do not receive free will cannot possibly follow the Spirit of God, and so these people are punished for what they are inherently incapble of doing.
You assume everyone wants to be in heaven with God. I would not make that assumption.
They can then use this God-given freedom to refuse to obey God. Instead of being punished for disobeying God, (like those who have no choice but to disobey God) however, the ones who choose to disobey God of their own free will go to heaven.
I believe I have already gone on record as saying those who disobey God are chastised by Him-even to the point of death. King David murder Uriah and that punishment stayed with him his entire life. But God loved King David even though he grievously sinned.
How do you propose to square this with the Epistle to the Romans, ch 2?
I don't need to point out to you that the Scripture is quite clear that it is on the basis of man's actions that God will judge him.
I never stated that God will not judge man for His actions. Im simply stating that God has to release man from his bonds. Men are evil. We need to be made acceptable to God for His good works. Once our Lord Jesus has set us free we are free indeed.
You keep bring up the WCF on Free Will paragraph (4) but you constantly neglect paragraph (3) that man is bound to sin and must be set free. You also neglected Romans 3 which plainly states that there is NONE that does what is RIGHT. I would suggest you read Romans 3:10-18 to give you a picture of exactly what our nature is towards God.
Now, it seems to me that a reasonable reading is that the Westminster Confessions is teaching that Man has free will, and can freely choose to do good or evil, at least in the case of the regenerate man. According to the Epistle to the Romans Ch 2, if he chooses to sin (to refuse to be led by the Spirit of God) then he is choosing God's wrath and fury. Does that seem like a reasonable reading to you?
No because you simply fail to understand the difference of the elect and the children of wrath concept. There are two cities as Augustine states. There is the city of man who is heading for destruction. These are the people around us who have no desire for spiritual things and remains in their sins. There are others who hunger after the things of God. This second group is Gods elect who He has chosen and given to the Son and the Son keeps them safe. The second group WAS just like the first group except for some unknown reason God called them out:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus Eph 2:2-6
If you are relying on our Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation you are already seated with Christ in the heavenly places. That is what Paul states. Christ died for ALL your sins-past, present and future. Any sin that you do from now until God takes you home will be meant with punishment (perhaps even death) but it will not remove you from being seated with Christ.
Youre essentially arguing that you made a choice to follow God and you keep yourself in Gods grace by doing whatever. This denies Gods omniscience and omnipotence. It is folly. God keeps us. It is also the problem Pelagius and all of his followers had.
533
posted on
11/17/2005 6:08:07 AM PST
by
HarleyD
(Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
To: HarleyD
"You assume everyone wants to be in heaven with God."
Harley, I'm not assuming anything, I'm just re-stating the views you've presented to see if I correctly understand what you have said.
"No one makes a decision to go to Hell. All men are destined for Hell to begin with. As far as Heaven, God opens the heart so that it isn't rebellious and then ask, "Do you want to go the heaven or do you want an eternal life of torment?" This isn't a "rocket science" decision by us."
So in this framing of free will, God presents man with a choice between heaven and hell. At that point, your salvation hangs upon your decision, correct? You are free to choose to go to Heaven, and conversely, you are free to choose to go to hell. Either way, according to the view you have presented on the matter, God gives you the choice, and whether you end up in Heaven or Hell depends entirely upon that decision. You state it's a very easy decision, however, it's entirely possible to make the wrong decision, correct? That is, since man is the one making the decision, he can err and not do what is right. Human error is always a possibility, to quote the Epistle to the Romans, "there is no one who does good, there is not even one", and again, "there is no one who understands."
Can you tell me how you see yourself making this decision, one way or the other? That is, exactly how do you make this decision?
534
posted on
11/17/2005 1:18:47 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
Harley, I'm not assuming anything, I'm just re-stating the views you've presented to see if I correctly understand what you have said. This is what you've stated:
The people who do not receive free will cannot possibly follow the Spirit of God, and so these people are punished for what they are inherently incapble of doing.
I simply stated that you are assuming everyone wants to go to heaven. Let me state your position using your theology.
The people who do not hear the gospel cannot possibly follow the Spirit of God. Those who cannot hear the gospel such as the mentally infirmed, those stuck on some deserted island, the aborted babies and others not listed God makes exceptions for and exempts them. Those who God transform into a "new creature" can hear the gospel but they may not accept the message. At that time these new creatures in Christ really don't have the Holy Spirit sealed inside of them. The left overs must come to Christ like God prescribes.
Thanks but I'll stick to my interpretation that God will save those who He so desires.
So in this framing of free will, God presents man with a choice between heaven and hell. At that point, your salvation hangs upon your decision, correct?
While at times I'm not very articulate, I'm not exactly sure what problem you have in understanding the WCF. Most Catholics (and many Protestants) I know grasps the concepts and reject them. You seem to be struggling with this. For a more thorough reading between the two distinct views I would direct you to my home page. Also this article Free Will may help you.
It may be you are questioning the "calling"; man's answering God after God has released him from his bondage. Does man make a choice then? I would further refer you to the WCF.
Of Effectual Calling
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
For References
I would also direct your attention to the following article: Irresistable Grace
535
posted on
11/17/2005 4:31:47 PM PST
by
HarleyD
(Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
To: HarleyD
HarleyD,
I'll ask the question again:
""No one makes a decision to go to Hell. All men are destined for Hell to begin with. As far as Heaven, God opens the heart so that it isn't rebellious and then ask,. "Do you want to go the heaven or do you want an eternal life of torment?" This isn't a "rocket science" decision by us."
In your framing of free will above, God presents man with a choice between heaven and hell. At that point, your salvation hangs upon your decision, correct? You are free to choose to go to Heaven, and conversely, you are free to choose to go to hell. Either way, according to the view you have presented on the matter, God gives you the choice, and whether you end up in Heaven or Hell depends entirely upon that decision. You state it's a very easy decision, however, it's entirely possible to make the wrong decision, correct? That is, since man is the one making the decision, he can err and not do what is right. Human error is always a possibility, to quote the Epistle to the Romans, "there is no one who does good, there is not even one", and again, "there is no one who understands."
Can you tell me how you see yourself making this decision, one way or the other? That is, exactly how do you make the decision to go to heaven or to hell?
These are three questions to clarify the position you have stated. I think you can agree that they follow naturally from what you have written.
536
posted on
11/17/2005 5:33:55 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
Question 1: I'll ask the question again: At that point, your salvation hangs upon your decision, correct?
No! Didn't you read the articles I posted. If God gives you the gift of salvation don't you think He has the power to draw you to Him? It may be your choice but there is only one choice. God has already changed your heart and nature to follow Him.
It's like going to buy ice cream. God gives you a ravenous craving for chocolate ice cream. You see chocolate and vanilla on the shelf. What are you going to buy?
Question 2: You state it's a very easy decision, however, it's entirely possible to make the wrong decision, correct?
No! This is our argument with those who hold a "free will" position. If man is free to choose, he will ALWAYS make the wrong spiritual choice. God has to change the heart to make the right choice. If God changes the heart to make the right choice, God's work is perfect and man will indeed make the right choice.
See ice cream example above.
Question 3: Can you tell me how you see yourself making this decision, one way or the other? That is, exactly how do you make the decision to go to heaven or to hell?
You don't make any decisions. You don't even cooperate. God saves you and it is His gift to you. There is not one thing you have to boast about-not even your "cooperation".
It is under this "free will" concept that man feels he must make some kind of choice for God either by "exercising his faith" or by "cooperating" with God. Under either of these scenario man may or may not make the right choice. It is absurd to think that our salvation could depend upon our disposition or even if we gets to hear the message at all. In either position, no matter how much the the grace of God is preached, comes back to a work of man.
537
posted on
11/18/2005 5:05:04 AM PST
by
HarleyD
(Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
To: HarleyD
"It may be your choice but there is only one choice."
"You don't make any decisions."
This is our argument with those who hold a "free will" position
HarleyD,
It looks more like an argument you're having with yourself. You've very specifically described a decision between heaven and hell. Did you not mean what you said? I'm just trying to understand the spiritual system you are describing.
"As far as Heaven, God opens the heart so that it isn't rebellious and then ask,. "Do you want to go the heaven or do you want an eternal life of torment?" This isn't a "rocket science" decision by us."
In your system, you claim there is a decision. According to you, God asks if you want to go to heaven, or to hell. You specifically describe it as a decision, and if I've understood you correctly, it's a one time decision. Again, how did you make this decision?
Did God give you a backstage pass to the Garden of Eden, which you showed to the Cherubim so you could enter and eat the fruit from the tree of life? Or did you git saved? Make a decision for Christ? Answer an alter call? I'm asking about your own statement, not making one of my own.
You said it's and easy decision ("not a rocket science decision on our part.") Can you elaborate upon that decision? Where you put in paradise, given a perfect nature, and told directly and specifically by God that if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you would die the death?? Is that what you mean by an easy decision?
First you say there is a decision between heaven and hell, and then you say there is no decision. This is a little like your arguments for and against free will. I'm just trying to understand.
538
posted on
11/22/2005 12:31:23 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
To: InterestedQuestioner
It looks more like an argument you're having with yourself
.I'm just trying to understand the spiritual system you are describing.
This is a typical debate tactic that doesnt work very well on a forum such as this where information is documented. You can only claim ignorance so many times before you start looking a tad foolish. I would refer you back to my last post 537 which you seem to be ignoring for whatever reason.
If you are trying to understand the system Im describing I would refer you to the Westminster Confession of Faith which various sections have been posted many times. You seem to be familiar with them but you dont seem to be able to comprehend them. For a more detail understanding of scripture I would refer you to John Calvins commentaries. While I dont agree with everything Mr. Calvin has to say I would agree with a vast majority. If you would like a Catholic source I would refer you specifically to Augustines A Treatise On The Predestination of the Saints.
Again, how did you make this decision?
Please see my answers to your three questions in post 537. God changes the heart and spirit. It is a gift from God.
Did God give you a backstage pass to the Garden of Eden, which you showed to the Cherubim so you could enter and eat the fruit from the tree of life? Or did you git saved? Make a decision for Christ? Answer an alter call? I'm asking about your own statement, not making one of my own.
Please show me in my post where I stated people are saved through answering an alter call. I would refer you to Question #3 in post 537. Did God give me (and other Christians) a backstage pass? Yes.
First you say there is a decision between heaven and hell, and then you say there is no decision. This is a little like your arguments for and against free will. I'm just trying to understand.
Apparently the references have not helped. I believe I posted the WCF argument about "free will" a while back. I directly answered your questions in #537 but you still seem to have a problem understanding. Most people understand the concept although they may not agree with them. If you are truly seeking to understand (which I doubt) then I would refer you to www.monergism.com which provides a wealth of information on the Reformed perspective.
This does leave me baffled as to what YOU believe. Can you please describe to me how you freely cooperate with God in your salvation? Dont you have to work for your salvation?
539
posted on
11/22/2005 4:23:21 PM PST
by
HarleyD
(Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
To: HarleyD
"For a more detail understanding of scripture I would refer you to John Calvins commentaries....."
" If you would like a Catholic source I would refer you specifically to Augustines A Treatise On The Predestination of the Saints."
"I posted the WCF argument about "free will" a while back....."
" I would refer you to www.monergism.com which provides a wealth of information on the Reformed perspective."
Harley, I'm specifically asking what you meant in your own statement. I'm not going to find the answer in an external source.
You specifically state that the person is given a decision, a choice between heaven and hell.
"As far as Heaven, God opens the heart so that it isn't rebellious and then ask,. "Do you want to go the heaven or do you want an eternal life of torment?" This isn't a "rocket science" decision by us."
Do you not believe what you wrote here?
"You don't make any decisions."
Perhaps you could explain to me why these statements are only apparently contradictory? You make a decision, but you never make a decision?
540
posted on
11/22/2005 6:08:54 PM PST
by
InterestedQuestioner
("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
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