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To: InterestedQuestioner
Harley, I'm not assuming anything, I'm just re-stating the views you've presented to see if I correctly understand what you have said.

This is what you've stated:

I simply stated that you are assuming everyone wants to go to heaven. Let me state your position using your theology.

Thanks but I'll stick to my interpretation that God will save those who He so desires.

So in this framing of free will, God presents man with a choice between heaven and hell. At that point, your salvation hangs upon your decision, correct?

While at times I'm not very articulate, I'm not exactly sure what problem you have in understanding the WCF. Most Catholics (and many Protestants) I know grasps the concepts and reject them. You seem to be struggling with this. For a more thorough reading between the two distinct views I would direct you to my home page. Also this article Free Will may help you.

It may be you are questioning the "calling"; man's answering God after God has released him from his bondage. Does man make a choice then? I would further refer you to the WCF.

Of Effectual Calling

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]

For References

I would also direct your attention to the following article: Irresistable Grace

535 posted on 11/17/2005 4:31:47 PM PST by HarleyD (Joh 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.)
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To: HarleyD
HarleyD,

I'll ask the question again:

""No one makes a decision to go to Hell. All men are destined for Hell to begin with. As far as Heaven, God opens the heart so that it isn't rebellious and then ask,. "Do you want to go the heaven or do you want an eternal life of torment?" This isn't a "rocket science" decision by us."

In your framing of free will above, God presents man with a choice between heaven and hell. At that point, your salvation hangs upon your decision, correct? You are free to choose to go to Heaven, and conversely, you are free to choose to go to hell. Either way, according to the view you have presented on the matter, God gives you the choice, and whether you end up in Heaven or Hell depends entirely upon that decision. You state it's a very easy decision, however, it's entirely possible to make the wrong decision, correct? That is, since man is the one making the decision, he can err and not do what is right. Human error is always a possibility, to quote the Epistle to the Romans, "there is no one who does good, there is not even one", and again, "there is no one who understands."

Can you tell me how you see yourself making this decision, one way or the other? That is, exactly how do you make the decision to go to heaven or to hell?

These are three questions to clarify the position you have stated. I think you can agree that they follow naturally from what you have written.
536 posted on 11/17/2005 5:33:55 PM PST by InterestedQuestioner ("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
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