Drawing the Line for Mormons: A Closer Look at the LDS Church

Catholic Exchange ^ | October 17, 2005 | Mary Kochan

[NYer]

Mormons want you to believe that they are "Christians" and that their church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," is just another Christian denomination. Mormons themselves believe that they are Christians and that their church is the only true church. There is even a move among Mormons to shorten the name of their church to simply "The Church of Jesus Christ."

In This Article...
America's Lost Tribe
Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?
When Talking to a Mormon

America's Lost Tribe

Their founder, Joseph Smith, claimed to have been told in a vision regarding the Christian churches that God "forbade me to join with any of them" and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight." It is hence Mormons (not Christians) who established, from the beginning of their group, an antagonistic relationship with those Christian groups already in existence. In recent years Mormons have sought to downplay this antagonism, and that testimony of Joseph Smith has received a new whitewashing in the current Newsweek cover story "The Mormon Odyssey" which relates the story like this: "God and Jesus appeared and delivered a startling message: he shouldn't join any of the churches of the world, for they had long ago fallen away from Christ's true Gospel."

In one sense clearly, Mormons are Christian. If you were going to categorize Mormons according to world-religion criteria, you would have to say they are Christians. World religions are the major belief systems found around the world that frame a tradition of enough cultural richness to support a civilization. The major world religions are Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Confucianism and Islam. Clearly Mormonism fits into the broad "Christian" category. And so would many other groups whose relationship with the wider Christian world is antagonistic: Jehovah's Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.

It may be that in the not-too-distant future, we will have to categorize Mormonism as a separate world religion. It is the fifth-largest religious group now in the US, having just passed the Lutherans, and the LDS are experiencing rapid expansion in other countries. In many ways its development parallels that of Islam. Both religions were founded by prophets who claimed to have been visited by an angel. They borrow heavily from Judaism and Christianity, yet reject their central tenets. Both rely upon strange revisions of history. The Koran identifies Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam the sister of Moses, who lived over fourteen centuries earlier. The Book of Mormon makes numerous claims regarding the peoples of the Americas (including the idea that the American Indians descended from a lost tribe of ancient Israelites) that have been refuted by history, archeology and anthropology. Both Islam and Mormonism claim that where their sacred writings contradict the Bible, the Christian and Jewish scriptures have been corrupted.

It might be argued that Mormons have the right to say that they are "Christians" and no one should deny what they say about themselves. It is possible, however, for us to respect their right to call themselves whatever they wish without feeling compelled to validate that claim ourselves. This is complicated by the fact that to many Catholics, Mormonism seems no more strange than the Baptist faith, or that of any other Protestant denomination. In part this is because Mormons themselves generally use the language and terminology common to (especially Protestant) Christians. In their initial approach to you, they will do all they can to hide or gloss over the distinctive beliefs of their church. Statements of Mormon belief sound so much like statements of the Christian faith that many Catholics and Protestants are quite willing to recognize Mormons as "Christians," not merely in the world-religion sense, but in the sense in which we Catholics recognize Protestant Christians as our "separated brethren." This is a serious error with two major consequences.

First, Christians (including Catholics) are misled into the Mormon church where they are indoctrinated in a religion which rejects the central doctrines of the Christian faith, resulting in them bringing their children up as non-Christians. Second, Christians embrace Mormons as fellow Christians instead of evangelizing them.

In order to protect Christians from this deception and to help Mormons learn the truth, we must understand how Mormon doctrine differs from the historic Christian faith that we share with Protestants. To do this, we will examine first what Mormons say, then how they define the terms they are using and how that differs from the Christian faith. Finally we provide a biblical, Christian response and suggestions for how to discuss these things with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The Central Question: Who is God?

What Mormons will say they believe about God:

1. We believe in God the Father who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
   
2. We worship God the Father and pray to him in Jesus's name.
   
3. Jesus is our Savior.

Why the Mormon God the Father is not the Christian God the Father:

1. "God the Father" to a Mormon is not God the Father, first Person of the Holy Trinity, Whom Christians confess. He is one of many gods.
   
2. The Mormon worships God the Father because He is the god of this planet, but other planets have other gods equal to or even greater than God the Father.
   
3. The Mormon "God the Father" had a father and was once a man on a planet who worshipped his own Father God. He was subsequently exalted to godhood. He has a physical, human body.
   
4. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he too will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet.
   
5. The Mormons have a saying: "What man is, God once was; what God is, man will become." This is polytheism.

Christian answer:

1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made the heavens and the earth; there is no other God; there never has been any other God, nor will there ever be another. (Gn 1:1; Is 43;10; 44:6, 8, 24)
2. God the Father was never a man.
3. You will never be God.
4. True Christianity, like Judaism, is monotheistic. As our creed states "We believe in one God."

Jesus: Brother of Lucifer?

Why the Mormon Jesus is not the Christian Jesus:

1. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer (Satan). They were both born in heaven by God the Father's union with one of his many spirit wives.
2. According to Mormon teaching, when it was time for Jesus to come down to earth, God the Father sent down one of his spirit wives from heaven to be born as a woman, Mary. Then he came down and had physical, marital relations with her in order for her to give birth to a human body inhabited by Jesus coming from heaven. This is a denial of the Virgin Birth.

Christian answer:

1. Since God the Father does not have a physical human body, He did not impregnate Mary by a physical union (2 Chr 6:18; Jn 4:24).
   
2. Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary (Mt 1:23; Lk 2:30-35).
3. God the Father does not have a wife or wives in heaven.
   
4. Jesus is the eternally-begotten Son of God, one in being with the Father (Jn 1:1-18).
   
5. He is not the older brother of Lucifer.
6. He is the older brother, as well as Lord and God, of those born again by water and Spirit, God's adopted children (Jn 3:3-17; Rom 8:14-17, 29).

Why the Mormon doctrine of man is not the Christian doctrine of man:

1. According to Mormonism, all human beings existed as spirit children of God and his wife in heaven before coming to earth.
   
2. They grow to spirit "adulthood" serving God (even fighting in heavenly battles), and are then sent to earth to be babies of human parents.
   
3. The earthly life is their opportunity to become gods themselves, like their heavenly Father, by "obeying the laws of the Gospel" just as the god of this planet once did.

Christian answer:

1. There is no biblical support for the idea that human beings were spirit children of God in heaven before coming to earth.
   
2. Jesus was unique in being a human being with a pre-human existence (Jn 1:18; 3:13, 31; 8:23, 58).
   
3. Jesus took on human nature at the Incarnation. God became man — not the other way around. His human nature was glorified at His Resurrection.
   
4. We will be like God in that we will have the same kind of glorified human nature which Jesus possesses, not in becoming gods and ruling planets ourselves (1 Jn 3:3; Rom 8:22, Phil 3:20-21).
   
5. While heaven is the presence of God with unfettered communion, the distinction between God and creatures remains (Rv 5:13, 14).

What is Salvation?

What Mormons will say they believe about salvation:

1. All are redeemed by the Savior's self-sacrifice, from the consequences of the fall.
   
2. Immortality comes as a free gift, by the grace of God alone, without works.
   
3. Jesus is our Savior.

Why Mormon salvation is not Christian salvation:

1. According to Mormonism, everyone and everything — all of creation — has been redeemed and therefore "saved."
   
2. This salvation gains, for all human beings, a physical resurrection only — not eternal life. Eternal life is not "salvation"; it is "exaltation."
   
3. If you ask a Mormon if he is saved (per Evangelical parlance), he will answer yes.
4. If you ask him if he believes you are saved, he will answer yes. This confuses Christians who do not understand that being "saved" and gaining "eternal life" are not the same thing in Mormon thinking.
   
5. It is further confused by the Mormon distinction between "immortality" (salvation to physical resurrection) and "eternal life" (exaltation to godhood).
6. The Mormons have a saying: "Salvation without exaltation is damnation."
7. Therefore, a Mormon can, with a straight face, tell you he believes you are "saved," while he also believes you are damned.

Christian answer:

1. We define salvation according to what we are saved from. We are saved from sin and from the wages of sin — death.
   
2. To be saved from sin is to be justified and sanctified. To be saved from death is to receive eternal life (Rom 6:22, 23).
   
3. Being saved, justified, sanctified and given eternal life by the grace of God are all things which are interconnected in the Scriptures. There is no biblical basis for separating them (Rom 5).
   
4. Seeking exaltation is contrary to the spirit of Christ. We are rather to humble ourselves, recognize our sinfulness and call upon the Lord for mercy and forgiveness (Js 4:6-10).

Why the Mormon hope is not the Christian hope:

1. It is the hope of the male Mormon to progress to the point where he will be a god like God the Father and be ruling over his own planet. This is "exaltation," and depends upon the Mormon "Plan of Eternal Progression."
2. The hope of Mormon females depends upon their being married, in a temple ceremony, to a Mormon male who achieves exaltation.
3. Mormon women married to non-Mormons ("Gentiles") can arrange for a "temple sealing" (marriage by proxy) to a Mormon male after their death. This is to assure that in eternity they are considered to have been married to and produced their children from a Mormon husband so that they and their children can be exalted.
   
4. Mormon males expect to produce offspring in heaven with their mate(s), offspring who will subsequently be sent to populate their planet and achieve their own exaltation to godhood and so on and so on…

Christian answer:

1. The God of the Bible is the Creator and God of all the universe, of all worlds, not just our planet. He made man for Himself and in His image to be in communion with God and enter into the love of the Holy Trinity.
   
2. When man fell into sin and marred the image of God in his own being, the second person of the Trinity became incarnate — taking human nature to Himself.
   
3. He then did what He could not do in the form of God: He died to save us from sin and death, so that we could come back into communion with God and share the love of the Holy Trinity. Our hope is to be with God, not to be God (Gn 1-3; Phil 2:5-11).

When Talking to a Mormon

Remember that the Mormon is trained to hide the difference between his beliefs and yours and to present himself as a Christian. However, his belief that he is a Christian is sincere, and his efforts to hide the distinctives of the Mormon religion are pursued in his desire to get you to accept Mormon teachings.

Do not allow glib, surface responses to go unchallenged; press the Mormon to define the Christian-sounding words he is using.

Define your own terms also. Draw the contrast for the Mormon. Calmly and clearly insist that what you and he believe about the nature of God, the identity of Jesus, the nature of man, salvation and eternal life are different. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Appeal to his honesty and sense of fairness. You might say, "Look, we are not going to get anywhere unless we are honest with each other. Without making any statement about which one of us is right, can't we just acknowledge that we do not worship the same God?" or "Can't we just acknowledge that we do not have the same hope for the future?" Help the Mormon to consider the logical and philosophical problems with the Plan of Eternal Progression.

If God had a Father and He had a Father and so on — then who was the first God? Mormons say it is an "infinite regression." But since there is no way to cross an infinite distance or pass an infinite amount of time, there would be no way to get to "now" and to "us" from an infinite past. Time has to have had a beginning and it did. It began with the creation "of all things seen and unseen" by God. Mormons say that God is omnipotent (almighty, all-powerful), yet they say there are many Gods. There cannot be more than one omnipotent being, so the Mormon conception of God is shrunken and distorted.

A big selling point of the Mormon hope for the future is the idea that families will be together eternally. But if Mormons become Gods of planets and then their children become Gods of other planets — how do the children and parents get together? Can a God leave his planet unattended while he goes to a celestial family reunion? This Mormon selling point would be diminished if we Christians were more vocal about our hope for the "new heavens and new earth" in which we know one another in the all the relationships of our present lives, only in glory (2 Pt 3:13; Rv 21:1).

Welcome the participation of Mormons in causes which we share for the common good: strengthening family life, fighting pornography and abortion, fostering the virtue of patriotism. We honor each Mormon as a person who desires what is genuinely good for himself, his family and his society — and when we share the truths of the Christian faith with him.

[andysandmikesmom]

Christ may not have been concerned with being 'rude' or 'nasty'...but he was Christ, none of us here can ever make such a claim...Christ knew the absolute truth, because of who He was...I dont think anyone else here can make that same claim...

And quite frankly, calling someone a 'snake handler', or a 'cannibal', is rude and nasty...that is not a matter of being PC...it just shows that one cannot argue their point, and instead stoops to name calling...

As has been demonstrated by many posters, disagreement can be done civilly, without acting like a little kid, who cannot get his way, and ultimately goes on to name-calling...

I have read many religious threads, where there was an abundance of disgreement on doctrine and such...the discussions were vigorous, backed up by Scripture or their own church writings...people disagreed and disagreed quite vehemently, but they did not downward spiral into a cesspool...Those civil discussions are the discussions which may lead others who are seeking the truth to discover that very truth...

When someone calls someone else they disagree with a 'snake handler', or a 'cannibal', they have already lost the discussion...

[colorcountry]

I agree wholeheartedly. Only by keeping discussion civil, can we continue debate here on FR. The mods just will not allow bashing and I agree with them.

We can disagree and state the reasons why, without stooping to personal attacks.

[gamarob1]

but he was Christ, none of us here can ever make such a claim...Christ knew the absolute truth, because of who He was...I dont think anyone else here can make that same claim...

Things are not nearly that "in the dark". Christ Himself said that the Holy Spirit is in all His children to lead them to truth and light, not darkness and ambiguity

I do greatly appreciate your words on the civility of discussion. It's a lesson I've learned on here, for my own benefit and the benefit of others

[andysandmikesmom]

Thanks for your reply...but pointing out to me that Jesus Himself was willing to be offensive, when it came to the truth, does not really apply here...because, as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus Christ Himself, offending others when it came to the truth, is a good thing, because Jesus Christ Himself, because of who He was, did know the absolute truth...that I am sure of...

But when regular mortal human beings tell me they know the absolute truth, that is something I am not at all sure of...I know that all here, do believe that their own 'religion', is the only religion, or the best religion, but that is their opinion...and their opinion is only the opinion of a regular mortal human being...and thus, could be prone to error...

Only Christ Himself, knew the truth to a certainty...all others have their opinion, and everyone has their own opinion...that does not make those opinions the absolute truth...

We all have to study and reflect and pray and hopefully that will bring us closer to the truth...

You have decided, from your posting, that its ok for one to lump the Baptists in with the Catholics, but never the Mormons, because as you say, its your opinion, that Mormons can never be lumped together with Baptists or Catholics, because after all, Mormons have a false religion...but that is your opinion, not a fact of truth...

So which religions do you deem to be 'false' religions, or not Christian religions?...there are so many religions which consider themselves to be Christian...Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science, Anglican, Episcopalian, Presbyterians,
and on and on...and then there are many little churches, that seem to have no 'official' affiliation, but nonetheless consider themselves to be Christian...

Who gets to decide which religions are Christian? Certainly not I, certainly not you, certainly no one on any religious thread...all one can do is inform themselves, and try to seek the truth...

And this discussion and disagreement is good, as it allows those with knowledge of their religion to present the doctrine and beliefs of their religion, and allows for good and frank discussion...and there have been many, many religious threads on FR, which have been exactly like that...full of informtion, Scripture, personal experiences, history, etc, all usely trying to explain why a particular person feels that his own religion is the truer religion...that is a discussion which is grand...

Sticking out your tongue, and saying, "neener-neener', and calling someone a 'snake-handler', or a 'cannibal', as a cheap shot, and then running away, is like a spoiled, little child who does not get his way, and in frustration goes downhill in language and behavior...

I hope that the discussions on these religious threads bring out those mature in their religious beliefs who are willing to help and and inform and act like adults, serious about their religions and serious about passing that info onto those of us less knowledgeable...I just dont like to see adults act like little two year olds having a temper tantrum...

[gamarob1]

Jesus spoke in absolutes, not the uncertainty that surrounds your views. Belief is a funny thing. You can "believe" whatever you want, but what is true, is what is true. It's cut and dry, black and white. Man's "job" is to find out what is true, not just "believe" whatever.

Jesus said that He IS the way, the TRUTH, and the life. Not that He is a part of it. HE IS IT. Jesus also said that no man (woman or child) can enter the kingdom of God unless they be born again. Jesus also said that He is the Door to heaven, and we enter by Him, by faith in Him, calling on His Name to save us, as He is the one that died for our sins, took the penalty for them, and rose again from the dead. Therefore all the different "denominations" under the Christian umbrella are equivalent if they agree with these words of Jesus concerning how a man gets to heaven and not eternal hell. The differences they have are mainly stylistic, not doctrinal.

But with Mormonism, they disagree on how a man gets to heaven, and who Jesus is. That's what separates them from Christians (in whatever denomination/style you prefer)

[andysandmikesmom]

Thanks for your kind reply in post #103...I do agree that the Holy Spirit can lead us to the truth... it does seem most of the posters from different Christian religions, make that very same claim...

My point tho is, if they all claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, and yet they all belong to different religions...well that can pose a dilemma...why would the Holy Spirit lead one person to a particular religion , and lead others to a completely different religion...something is amiss here...

[gamarob1]

I don't think they claim to be in different religions. There may be a few on the fringe lunatic section of each denomination that insist that "Baptists are superior" or whatever. But those few don't speak for the whole. Episcopalian, Methodist, Catholic, Baptist, "non-denominational", whatever it may be, we're all worshipping the same Jesus, if we all indeed are born again

But the Mormon thing is different

[andysandmikesmom]

You are quite correct, that the truth is the truth, no matter what you believe...just believing something will not make it true...I believe Jesus spoke in absolutes, because He could...I just dont believe that any mortal man can speak with such absolute authority...

You talk about the 'door', and yet I have seen many different discussion on just exactly this particular subject, ,and great disagreement among those in mainstream religions, who disagree quite vehemently on the exact nature, purpose, etc, of this 'door'...so I just dont think its quite as you pose it...but thats fine, you have one belief, and others have a different one, and each person makes up his mind, after thought, prayer, and study, which view they believe is the truth...

Each one of us, comes to what we believe is the truth, and there may be a great disagreement as to what that truth is...I can see you and I just dont see eye to eye on this, but appreciate the flow of ideas...

[andysandmikesmom]

See you state the Mormon thing is different...this is your view, but I would guess that the Mormons themselves would take issue with you on this point...you have your opinion and they have theirs...

I wish I could stay longer and discuss further, but unfortunately real life does intervene, and I have to go, and will be away from the computer for several days, only having a few minutes here or there to come on to FR...but have enjoyed this discussion, and enjoyed your 'civility'...

[gamarob1]

I also enjoyed discussing this with you, even if you never see this. I have more time to talk on here than usual, since I'm sitting in home recovery from minor surgery, and there's NOTHING else to do

But the Mormons are different, because they view Jesus as less than Almighty God Himself, and they add works to salvation, where Jesus does not. He did all the work Himself, thank God

[colorcountry]

Actually, Mormons believe that all mankind will be resurrected because of Christ's sacrifice. They do not believe one has to accept the gift....it is freely offered.

Mormonism is a very temporal or "earthly" denomination. They have a belief that "heaven" consists of three different glories. Each person will attain the glory that is earned by him/her while here on earth. Mormons believe that there are certain covenants one has to perform while here on earth to receive "celestial glory" which is the highest level and where one will dwell in the presence of God.

Everyone will recieve a glory either Terrestrial, Telestial, or Celestial based on performance here on earth. Only those who reach Celestial glory will be able to someday receive Godhood.

Now the simple fact that Mormons believe mankind has the ability to one day be a "god," make it a different sort of religion (among other things) than other traditional Christian groups.

When I grasped the concept of the Grace of God...it led me to see the complete failability of humans and their utter sinfullness. Only by accepting our imperfections can we truly come to see the majesty of the one and only true God, who is over all things, above all things and beyond our understanding. I do not believe humanity has the capability to one day be a "god" over his own domain.

[gamarob1]

Very well summarized, thank you for that

[mississippi red-neck]

By the authority of Christ, Himself, the Church must define what is of God and what is not.

I respectfully disagree with that statement.

It is God's word the scripture and Holy Spirit that defines what is of God and what is not.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is the scripture and the Holy Spirit which determines what is of God. At least it is for me.

Respectfully, MRN.

[SaltyJoe]

"It is the scripture and the Holy Spirit which determines what is of God."

The Scripture didn't write itself and yes, the Holy Spirit guides the Church through human leadership.

[Coleus]

One could say BSA is the LDS youth program. >>

come to think of it, I think the BSA is the official youth program for boys in the LDS church.

[mississippi red-neck]

All I'm trying to say is be alert in you places of worship.

There are many Churches and many denominations and each think they are right and others wrong and all seem to be undergoing changes almost daily.

That each changes it's doctrine and has their on problems is easy to tell by simply reading and watching the news everyday.

Christ warned us that as the time drew near to His return that deception, false teachings,and false doctrines would make their way into our places of worship.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

The Holy Spirit indwells individuals not organizations.

He has given us His Spirit and His Word and they are our unchangeable benchmarks with which we are to test the things we see and are told.

We as individuals are to test the teachings of any organization, church, priest, pastor,or individual to see if the Word of God and His Spirit, which resides within us [if we are His]supports them.

We will be held accountable for good or bad by what he teaches us not for what these others might or might not teach us.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

God Bless, MRN.

[SaltyJoe]

I thank you for your true devotion to Scripture and concern for all souls to know Christ. I rest my confidence in the Catholic Faith which is as indelible as God's Promise to Abraham. Though some of Catholic history was scandalized by wayward priests, bishops, and even a few anti-popes, the Church remains because the Holy Spirit is omnipotent. Christ's teachings have not changed. God does not forget His Chosen, the Jews. Jesus does not abandon His Bride, the Church. Nor will the Holy Spirit abandon you and me.

God is but a whisper away for all mortals. The inner voice of our hearts is enough to call upon His strength and tenderness.

[moog]

Nice to see the insulters are at it again. Most Mormons I know have been pretty good people, certainly not the kind to try to degrade things held "precious" by others, but good, hardworking, and devout people.

[moog]

several times within the space of once book.

That's hard to do. :)

I have to read within the space of once book a lot too.

[moog]

LOL