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Is Frank [Griswold] a Mormon?
Captain Yips Secret Journal ^ | 10/12/2005

Posted on 10/12/2005 5:17:24 PM PDT by sionnsar

I mean it.  It’s a good questions, because he seems to believe in at least two LDS doctrines.  We know that he believes in Continuing Revelation.  That’s how he explains his novel teaching on sexuality.  It isn’t my idea, he says, it’s the Holy Spirit speaking to us.  This is a nifty tactic, of course, because it not only gets Our Lord the Spirit behind the innovation, but declares that anyone who disagrees with the innovation isn’t listening to the Spirit, and that would be bad.

Wait: there’s more.  But first a little digression.

I mean it.  It’s a good questions, because he seems to believe in at least two LDS doctrines.  We know that he believes in Continuing Revelation.  That’s how he explains his novel teaching on sexuality.  It isn’t my idea, he says, it’s the Holy Spirit speaking to us.  This is a nifty tactic, of course, because it not only gets Our Lord the Spirit behind the innovation, but declares that anyone who disagrees with the innovation isn’t listening to the Spirit, and that would be bad.

Wait: there’s more.  But first a little digression.

Between 1810 and 1830 wagon loads of cousins left the areas around Hoosick, New York and North Kingston, RI for the Midwest.  Most came to Illinois.  Some diverted into Michigan, and a few more to Wisconsin.  They were all looking for land, and they were all abolitionists. The prestatehood arrivals played a part in making sure that Illinois came into the Union as a free state.  At least one of them seems to have run a station on the Underground Railway.

When the war came, quite a few served in the Union Army at various times.  My great-great-grandfather raised and equipped a rifle company that was later absorbed into one of the regular Pennsylvania regiments.  He served as for at least a year.  His daughter, my great grandmother, was a little girl then.  His actions were not a young man’s lark, but serious actions coming out of serious commitment.   Later, he helped to found and endow an Episcopal parish in Philadelphia, and served as senior warden for decades.  Here’s a picture of him in uniform,

Ggd

and in old age

Ggd2

(One of these days I’ll find out how my farm-boy, Baptist great grandfather met his mildly well to do, Episcopalian Rebecca.  I know it was when he was in medical school in Philadelphia, but I don’t know how.  She didn’t have any brothers who might have known Great Grandad, and opportunities for meeting and courtship were a bit more restricted in 1870 then they are now).

There were deaths in that generation:  Antietem, Shiloh, Andersonville.  The survivors came home, farmed their land, took their part in local government (Roads Commissioners, School Boards), and voted Republican.  That’s what the veterans of that war did.

The reparations movement has always seemed shaky to me because the ancestors of a lot of modern Americans were never involved in slavery, or actively fought it.  Should long established Chinese Americans (whose ancestors had a fairly rough time of it themselves) be forced to contribute to a reparations pool?  What about people whose ancestors came here after 1863?  What about those whose ancestors risked their lives, shed their blood, to end slavery?  Just doesn’t seem well thought through.

Not surprisingly, Frank Griswold and his sideboys and girls are getting behind this whole reparations thing.  Of course, no Episcopalian has owned a slave for a while.  You can probably find more Episcopalians who think that women are inferior than who think that black people are.  But Frank is putting himself behind a movement to “repent” of the Episcopal Church’s involvement in slavery.

Of course, you can’t repent of sin you haven’t committed.  Or can you?  Another important LDS teaching involves getting baptized (in the LDS fashion) on behalf of ancestors, substituting your action for theirs since they lived before the angel Moroni showed Joseph Smith the golden plates.  In Frank’s theology, he is suggesting to modern Episcopalians, themselves innocent of the sin of slavery, repent on behalf of Episcopalians long dead who didn’t have the advantage of this new revelation.

So we have continuing revelation and substitutional repentance, just for starters.  You’ve got to wonder what else is rattling around in Frank's head.  I begin to worry that there's plenty of room.

A tug o’ the forelock to Christopher Johnson, who reads Frank’s utterance so the rest of us don’t have to.



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1 posted on 10/12/2005 5:17:25 PM PDT by sionnsar
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To: ahadams2; Fractal Trader; Zero Sum; anselmcantuar; Agrarian; coffeecup; Paridel; keilimon; ...
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (typically 3-9 pings/day).
This list is pinged by sionnsar, Huber and newheart.

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com

Humor: The Anglican Blue (by Huber)

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

2 posted on 10/12/2005 5:18:34 PM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || (To Libs:) You are failing to celebrate MY diversity! || Iran Azadi)
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To: sionnsar

Nah, I would say he's a 'moron.'


3 posted on 10/12/2005 5:19:09 PM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: sionnsar

Like the author, my ancestors fought for the Union, and I see no need to pay a cent in reparations for slavery.


4 posted on 10/12/2005 5:31:10 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Unam Sanctam

If you can show me someone alive today who was legally a slave in the United States, I'll be happy to send him a personal gift.

Other than that, the whole concept is ZOT.


5 posted on 10/12/2005 5:41:29 PM PDT by Tax-chick (When bad things happen, conservatives get over it!)
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To: Unam Sanctam

One of my great-great-grandfathers died in the Civil War while fighting to free the slaves. His wife and young daughter were left in poverty and became dependent upon the local church (Congregational) for their support. They ended up working as servants for the minister's family.

If we have reparations I assume I will be able to put in my claim also. Or at least I ought to be able to demand that none of them come out of my pocket.


6 posted on 10/12/2005 6:11:38 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: Unam Sanctam
If you really want to confound the neo-abolitionists, ask them what the scriptures say about slavery. Most of them are too liberal to know what is in the Bible, but the ones who are scripturally literate will likely get flustered.
7 posted on 10/12/2005 6:33:43 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Tax-chick
"If you can show me someone alive today who was legally a slave in the United States, I'll be happy to send him a personal gift"

I'll introduce you to my boss and you can make your own decision but I think you owe me a gift. :)

8 posted on 10/12/2005 6:41:55 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: sionnsar

Interesting postulation. I had not thought of the connection until now.

If the shoe fits...


9 posted on 10/12/2005 7:19:03 PM PDT by Peanut Gallery
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To: sionnsar

Hey - my ancestors came here from Ireland AFTER the War of Northern Aggression! Come to think of it, they were pretty much "runaway slaves" from the Brits. Wonder if I can get the COE to shell out some cash?


10 posted on 10/12/2005 7:21:57 PM PDT by miketheprof
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To: miketheprof
Go for it, dude! COE would probably be so startled by your request that they would give you reparations and THEN set up a commission to see if it is okay!
11 posted on 10/12/2005 7:34:28 PM PDT by hummingbird (21st Century Newsreporting - "Don't get me started!")
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To: Unam Sanctam

**reparations for slavery.**

Reparations were paid in blood on a hundred battlefields.


12 posted on 10/12/2005 7:49:54 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn, the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: sionnsar
It isn’t my idea, he says, it’s the Holy Spirit speaking to us.

It might be a spirit but I kinda doubt it's the Holy Spirit.

13 posted on 10/12/2005 8:57:45 PM PDT by siunevada
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To: sionnsar

I understand what the author is saying here but, as a minor point, Mormons don't believe in "substitutional repentance". Mormons believe that they might help someone who has gone ahead fulfill the commandments of John 3:5, "Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Mormons are substituting themselves for the water baptism but the Spirit part, the repentance, is entirely up to the one who has gone on. Mormons believe that those who died without knowing the law of John 3:5 have a chance to learn the gospel in the hereafter and make a decision there on whether to accept it. Just for your information.




14 posted on 10/12/2005 9:24:49 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things)
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To: sionnsar

Why don't you describe some of Griswold's teachings and beliefs, and I'll tell you how un-Mormon they are. As a Mormon, I'm not aware of what he teaches.

I'm afraid you have mischaracterized the LDS practice of proxy baptisms.


15 posted on 10/12/2005 10:26:55 PM PDT by Choose Ye This Day (DUmmies are stuck on a special kind of stupid.)
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To: muir_redwoods

LOL! Wage-slavery doesn't count.


16 posted on 10/13/2005 4:25:33 AM PDT by Tax-chick (When bad things happen, conservatives get over it!)
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To: sionnsar

National Lampoons: The Griswalds Mormon Vacation?


17 posted on 10/13/2005 5:26:28 AM PDT by wolfcreek
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To: sionnsar

Collective guilt is a leftist idea.


18 posted on 10/13/2005 6:39:11 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Benedicamus Domino.)
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To: wolfcreek

"O God, ease our suffering in this, our moment of great dispair. Yea, admit this kind and decent woman into thy arms of thine heavenly area, up there. And Moab, he lay us upon the band of the Canaanites, and yea, though the Hindus speak of karma, I implore you: give her a break."

"Clark!"

"Honey, I'm not an ordained minister; I'm doing my best. ... "


19 posted on 10/13/2005 6:43:34 AM PDT by dfwgator (Flower Mound, TX)
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To: Choose Ye This Day
Why don't you describe some of Griswold's teachings and beliefs, and I'll tell you how un-Mormon they are. As a Mormon, I'm not aware of what he teaches.
I'm afraid you have mischaracterized the LDS practice of proxy baptisms.

Suggest you click through to the blog and place your requests with the author who wrote the piece above.

20 posted on 10/13/2005 8:17:56 AM PDT by sionnsar (†trad-anglican.faithweb.com† || (To Libs:) You are failing to celebrate MY diversity! || Iran Azadi)
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