Opining on a topic in which you possess deficient knowledge of could be described as a red-herring.
Posted on 10/12/2005 5:05:05 PM PDT by NYer
" No the Catholic Church, Latin Rite."
Actually, I think that's a much better way to refer to the Church of Rome, but it has been my understanding that the Latin Rite Church has always (or for at least a real long time) called itself the Roman Catholic Church and of late has refered to itself as a particular Church within The Church. As I said, I like "Latin Rite" as it is certainly a more accurate descriptor.
I also have always liked the idea of calling the Bishop of Rome the Patriarch of the West, or the Latin Patriarch of the West, but assumed you guys would find that offensive.
It's been that way from the beginning. St. Paul's letter to Timothy and his letter to Titus are witness to the apostolic tradition of ordaining married men to Holy Orders.
It works for the eastern Catholic churches.
It has worked fine in the Latin Rite as well. From the early centuries onward. The Latin Rite chose mandatory celibacy much later on.
One size doesn't need to fit all.
True! Yet I wonder how many married men have been called to the priesthood but cannot answer the call because they are members of the wrong rite.
Try moving a nasty priest who is entrenched in a parish. About the only thing that works is stopping the flow of money.
Not sure why this is a problem with a married man. i.e. Many married men and women in the armed forces are moved around when needed. Same thing with other professions. Not sure why this is a considered by some as an insurmountable problem.
Opining on a topic in which you possess deficient knowledge of could be described as a red-herring.
I have debated this on FR ad infinitum and unlike yourself I always have linked to , or quoted actual gospels and early church literature before insinuating someone has inferior knowledge on a topic. If you are going to reference quotes you should actualy quote them.
Matthew 19:1-12
1 Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan; 2 and large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." 10 The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry." 11 But he said to them, "Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202055.htm
http://www.byzantines.net/books/byzantinecatholics.htm
Further the Catholic church itself already concedes the matter of celibacy is one of tradition and not one of faith, were it a matter of faith the eastern rite churches would be heretical.
Further still the Lord made clear so much in his own words I strongly suspect had he intended for all preachers to be celibate he would have said so. Instead he clearly indicates that celibacy is a great calling and those called to it should take it, but that it is not for everyone and not something those not called to it should bear.
You should stop making assertions that you can't back up. I suggest you actually research all of my posts on the topic before you incorrectly characterize them. Stating that you possess a deficient knowledge of the topic is a fact not an insinuation.
For your much needed edification:
"For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mothers womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it." Matthew 19:12
"Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? And Jesus said to them: Amen I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first." Matthew 19:27-30
"And Peter began to say unto him: Behold, we have left all things and have followed thee. Jesus answering said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time: houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting. But many that are first shall be last: and the last, first." Mark 10:28-31
"Then Peter said: Behold, we have left all things and have followed thee. Who said to them: Amen, I say to you, there is no man that hath left home or parents or brethren or wife or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." Luke 18:28-30
"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord: how he may please God. But he that is with a wife is solicitous for the things of the world: how he may please his wife. And he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord: that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world: how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment." 1 Corinthians 7:32-35
"It is fitting that the holy bishops and priests of God as well as the Levites, i.e. those who are in the service of the divine sacraments, observe perfect continence, so that they may obtain in all simplicity what they are asking from God; what the Apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed, let us also endeavour to keep... It pleases us all that bishop, priest and deacon, guardians of purity, abstain from conjugal intercourse with their wives, so that those who serve at the altar may keep a perfect chastity." Canon 3, Council of Carthage, 390 AD.
Translate the following, oh learned one, and tell us when it was written:
'ut quod apostoli docuerunt, et ipsa servavit antiquitas nos quoque custodiamus'
and then tell us what Canons XXVII and XXXIII of the Council of Elvira, circa 302 AD, stated.
Maybe you will take your argument to the Catholic church which, if what you are arguing IS true, would then need to excommunicate the eastern rite churches.
Further your assertions are not facts no matter how vehemently you might make them.
Further I suggest you learn to take the words of Christ himself with at least as much import as those of early church fathers and apostles.
I'm not arguing and that's just one more fact that's lost upon you. I'm effectively refuting your bogus argument and you resent that.
would then need to excommunicate the eastern rite churches.
You are laughable. There are 22 Churches sui juris in six separate rites, five Eastern and one Western, that in union comprise the Catholic Church. The discipline in the West is for celibacy of all of those, with a relatively few dispensations granted under Pope John Paul IIs Pastoral Provision, ordained to the Priesthood. The discipline in the Eastern Rites are that married men may be ordained to the Priesthood but once ordained single Priests may not then get married. Bishops in the Eastern Rites are chosen exclusively from amongst celibates. Someone as learned as you claim to be on the topic should know all of this but you and I and everyone else reading this realizes that you aren't as learned as you want people to think you are.
Further your assertions are not facts no matter how vehemently you might make them.
Once again, I've stated facts not made assertions and you have demonstrated that you are ignorant of the topic as well as Sacred Scripture.
Still waiting for you to translate that statement.
Your assertions are based on a false book.
"1
1 2 3 Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"
2
but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
3
The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.
4
A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
5
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control."
You would figure the Roman church would have taken that statement by Paul to heart given they've seen quite explicitly what happens when you leave the door open to Satan.
You would be well served to heed the words of Christ yourself.
"He that heareth you heareth Me: and he that despiseth you despiseth Me: and he that despiseth Me despiseth Him that sent Me." Luke 10:16
Are you claiming that Scripture is a false book?
"For I would that all men were even as myself. But every one hath his proper gift from God: one after this manner, and another after that. But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I." 1 Corinthians 7:7-8
"But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord: how he may please God. But he that is with a wife is solicitous for the things of the world: how he may please his wife. And he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord: that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world: how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment." 1 Corinthians 7:32-35
You would figure the Roman church would have taken that statement by Paul to heart given they've seen quite explicitly what happens when you leave the door open to Satan.
As opposed to all of those Protestant denominations, who choose to reject the teachings of Christ and St. Paul on the discipline of celibacy and allow their clergy to marry, right?
The Apostolic Origens of Priestly Celibacy is full of assertions that are not backed up by facts, read the link about the book.
Further I quoted from the gospel Christ own words with regard to Celibacy and who is called to it, you ignored it and posted the words of his apostles.
Satan is let in with the same manner in both churches.
Arbitrary celibacy opened the Roman church to being a haven for perverts looking to cover up their true motives.
The protestant churches disobey the word of God at every turn, many don't even see fit to glorify his house.
You can slander protestants all day for all I care being as I'm Eastern Orthodox I couldn't care much less.
I suggest you read the book and Cochini's footnotes and bibliography.
Further I quoted from the gospel Christ own words with regard to Celibacy and who is called to it
As did I.
you ignored it and posted the words of his apostles.
Incorrect. I posted Christ's words from three Gospels; Matthew, Mark and Luke, in addition to St. Paul's.
You enjoy making a fool out of yourself, don't you?
So celibacy in the Eastern Orthodox Church is arbitray as well, correct.
You can slander protestants all day for all I care being as I'm Eastern Orthodox I couldn't care much less.
Stating facts isn't slander.
Protection of the Theotokos: A Site for Victims of Abuse in the Orthodox Church
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.