Synod - 06Oct - The Trinitarian, Marian, and Ecclesiological dimension of the Eucharist

Vatican Press Office ^ | October 6, 2005 | Card. Ignace Moussa I DAOUD

[John O]

They lack the profound reflection of countless theologians and simple christians who have reflected on the role Mary played in our Salvation. Indeed, she was the first to carry the "Bread and Wine" of our Salvation. Her womb was the first Tabernacle.

I'll be brief as gamarob1 has already spoken the truth here.

Mary was just an ordinary woman who was chosen to bear the Christ. Any other interpretation contradicts scripture. Mary was a sinner.

Now, Why do you even bother pinging us protestants to these threads if all you are going to do is flame bait? We have better things to do than argue with you about these things. You will not change and neither will we. As I believe that you honor Jesus as your personal savior we'll have plenty of time to sort out this trivia when we get to heaven. Until then drop it. Lets get people saved instead of wasting time on trivia. (How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?)

[gamarob1]

Well said in all points, John O.

Mary needed Jesus' salvation as much as all of us. And you're also right, it's better to preach the gospel than to get wrapped up in this sort of thing

[NYer]

Why do you even bother pinging us protestants

I pinged only you. You were baptized Catholic.

"Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit." Jn 3:5

[NYer]

Mary was a sinner.

"The Most Holy Virgin Mary was, in the first moment of her conception, by a unique gift of grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin."  (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 1854)

Mary's sinlessness is not for her own sake, but for Jesus' sake.  She had to be holy in order to be a worthy vessel for her utterly holy Son.  So this doctrine upholds the holiness and deity of Christ.

Since Jesus Himself preserved her, Mary's sinlessness depends completely upon Him.  He is the Savior of all humanity, Mary included.  By preserving her from all sin, Jesus shows us that He can indeed save "to the uttermost" (Hebrews 7:25).

On the other hand, were Jesus born of a sinner as you claim, that would mean either

a) the Savior could not save His own Mother from contracting sin or
b) He refused to honor His Mother in every way he could.

So Jesus would be either a weak Savior or a trangressor of His own Commandment to "Honor your father and your mother" (Exodus 20:12). The Immaculate Conception is clearly a belief which exalts Jesus!

[Kolokotronis]

"The difficult situation in which the Eucharist lies, is also a consequence of the lack of theological-dogmatic orientation. What is missing is a link which confers unity to the aspects of the Eucharist: epiclesis, anamnesis, koinonia and prosphora; the real presence, sacrifice and communion; forms of the presence of Jesus Christ in the Word, in the sacramental gifts, in the community and in the priest."

Encouraging words from a Latin Rite hierarch, NYer!

[Kolokotronis]

"A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language."

Where did this idea come from? Greek most certainly does have a superlative form.

[gamarob1]

You're gonna take the word of some pope over the Word of God? There's no point in continuing this discussion...

[John O]

I pinged only you. You were baptized Catholic.

If I was born in a garage would that make me an automobile?

You act as if Roman Catholicism is like islam. Once a moslem always a moslem. Well friend it doesn't work that way. I am no more catholic than I am Jewish and truth be told as a Christian I have a closer connection to being Jewish, grafted in as it were than I do to Catholicism.

Christianity is a voluntary turning of the heart away from sin and toward God. Babies cannot do that.

[John O]

"The Most Holy Virgin Mary was, in the first moment of her conception, by a unique gift of grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin." (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 1854)

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (KJV. Emphasis mine)

God trumps pope. Mary was a sinner. If she wasn't then why did Jesus need to come here at all? Mary could have died for our sins if she was perfect. The fact that Jesus came to earth to die tells us that no one else was perfect enough to be that sacrifice

[lightman]

Not all Protestants have ignored the close association of Mary, Jesus, and the Eucharist.

A United Methodist (!) eucharistic canon for Christmas expresses the eastern thought magnificently:

"As your Word became flesh,
born of a woman,
on that night long ago,
so in the night
in which he was betrayed
our Lord Jesus took bread,
and gave thanks,
broke it,
and gave it to his disciples
saying....."

[NYer]

That is quite beautiful; thank you for sharing it.

In the Maronite Catholic Church, as the offerings are carried up, we chant:

Halleluia
I Myself am Bread of Life, the Lord declared
From on high, I came to earth to bring the world,
Life from the Father
Pure word without flesh and like a grain of the finest wheat.
Mary's womb became for me a fertile garden,
Now priests carry me aloft, up to the altars.
Hallelulia. Accept our off'rings.