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To: NYer

Two points stand out here for me as an Orthodox Christian. First, this rather out of the blue commentary on the environment. This is very patristic. The Fathers taught that all of creation was created for theosis, not just us. Man in his pre-Fall state had the potential both for his own theosis, but also, through his own holiness, to consecrate the physical world. By bringing sin into the world, not only did man distort his own nature, but also that of the physical world around him and the natural disaters we see around us are more often than not the result of the weight of sin on creation. Creation was in fact given to us by God and we are to have dominion over it, but it is given to us in the nature of God's stewards over God's creation.

Second is the point on brotherhood, the Eucharistic community. The Eastern Fathers always taught that we, as a general rule (true asetical hermits being the exception and they are very rare)are saved within and as part of the Eucharistic community. To an Orthodox Christian or an Eastern Rite Christian in Communion with Rome, this seems self evident. To the Latin Rite Christian, especially of the more conservative stripe, this seems foreign. Those of us "of an age" remember the "old ladies mumbling ther beads" during the Liturgy. They were there but they weren't part of the Liturgy, the work of the people. Just as we move towards theosis within and as a part of a Eucharistic community, we also do so as a Liturgical people.


7 posted on 10/06/2005 5:07:50 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; sandyeggo; RKBA Democrat; redhead
First of all, KNOW, that John Allen is decidedly more of the liberal leaning than most of us in this forum. This source - National Catholic Reporter - is one which we normally disdain and rarely post. That said, I intentionally posted this article tonight simply to demonstrate what we already shun, if that makes any sense. It is, for lack of a better word, an 'opposing' view.

Those of us "of an age" remember the "old ladies mumbling ther beads" during the Liturgy. They were there but they weren't part of the Liturgy, the work of the people. Just as we move towards theosis within and as a part of a Eucharistic community, we also do so as a Liturgical people.

What a comfort it is to read this! That is my "pre Vatican Council II" recollection from the Latin Rite. The old women praying the Rosary during Mass. The younger generation (those born post VCII) have elevated the pre VCII Mass to some sort of euphoric level. I witnessed it first hand and returned to it several years ago, fully expecting that perhaps I had not understood something from my own experience as a child. Stepping into the Church that morning to attend the Indult Tridentine Mass, I recognized that NOTHING had changed. Here were the women praying their rosaries during the Mass. Young families assembled in the pews and I 'relived' my own childhood watching the parents turn the pages in their children's missals. The kids were totally lost. The children were expected to behave like adults, "little soldiers" kneeling straight in their respective pews. They dared not utter a word, or turn a page without the approval of their parents. I couldn't wait to leave the church that day.

In our Maronite Church, I am the one suggesting that the woman's group assume the noble task of praying for our pastor and the community; take over the responsibility of cleaning the church and washing the altar clothes; and fulfilling the Patriarch's recommendation of expanding our understanding of the Syriac language. And I am not even a Maronite! Such a gift! Such a blessing! They all take it for granted, but not me. I have personally witnessed what happens when we neglect our heritage and seek only to have the Maronites acknowledge it.

As you commented on a different thread, the Eastern Catholic prelates are speaking out at this Synold with a clear, bold and noble voice. May the members of the Latin Church hear and heed their voices.

8 posted on 10/06/2005 6:09:25 PM PDT by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: Kolokotronis; William Creel; NYer

"Social Justice" begins with the unborn child...at conception.


12 posted on 10/06/2005 7:35:05 PM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer
Those of us "of an age" remember the "old ladies mumbling ther beads" during the Liturgy.

At a late Mass on All Saints Day last year, I noticed they are still with us. A new generation of mumbling old ladies has risen up in spite of the vernacular!

Perhaps they serve some purpose in The Body Of Christ that is not clear to the majority. Perhaps they are necessary.

...there are different forms of service but the same Lord;
there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.
To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

22 posted on 10/07/2005 5:41:05 AM PDT by siunevada
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