and his brother ....just Moe
Posted on 10/01/2005 10:57:35 AM PDT by Presbyterian Reporter
Ken Moe, the executive of the Presbytery of the Grand Canyon, delivered a scathing attack on the New Wineskins Initiative and the Presbyterian Lay Committee in his report to the presbytery during its meeting on Sept. 16.
He said the two groups are promoting schism in the denomination by insisting on subscription to theological standards and moral imperatives. "Denomination watchers are predicting the greatest impact of the storm will occur next June in Birmingham, Alabama," Moe added. "That is the time and place of the 217th General Assembly."
Moe told the presbytery. "And it is fitting that I make this pledge at Fort Defiance [Presbyterian Church], because it is our Native American churches that would be most hurt by division. I will do everything I know how to prevent congregations from leaving the Presbytery of Grand Canyon. But if any should decide by proper vote to depart from the PCUSA, let there be no secession without compensation! I pledge to work hard to protect the historic mission of this presbytery from the economic ravages of schism
(Excerpt) Read more at layman.org ...
"No secession without compensation" is such a warm and pastoral message to tell the world!!!! Grrrr!!!!
"No secession without compensation"
The South should have used that:).
Reverend Gramsci-Marx would have been proud.
ping
But if any should decide by proper vote to depart from the PCUSA, let there be no secession without compensation! I pledge to work hard to protect the historic mission of this presbytery from the economic ravages of schism
When I was the sole dissenting vote, in my congregation, against 'REUNION' of the Southern church with the Northern church, I was wrongly scorned as an unrepentant, unreconstructed rebel. My primary concern was the loss of control of church property.
[T]he only thing that matters to the leadership [PCUSA] is the property of the 11,000 churches in the denomination.
The churches in the south controlled their own property until 'REUNION' [in early 1980s I believe]. The condition of 'REUNION' was the loss of the property to the PCUSA. I knew this day would come.
After 'REUNION' some prudent, prescient churches [one in Dallas] pulled out of the PCUSA, taking their property with them, before the expiration of the time for doing so.
For many years, the Presbyterian Lay Committee has exposed the mis-use of church funds for many hard-left wing, unchurchlike, political things.
Moral imperatives, doctrinal matters and religion have vanished from the concerns of the PCUSA. They have much to answer for.
When we first came here from Scotland, when I was young, my Dad found the Presbyterian Church in town and we attended. After this church gave moral and financial support to the communist activist Angela Davis my Dad pulled the family out and finally settled in a healthy Baptist Church. It was then that he realized the extant that the PCUSA had strayed from the faith. I strongly support those doctrinally sound PCUSA churches to withdraw and not worry about the property. My current church met in a school for 10 years. This month we will be moving into our new building and our growth during this time has been phenomenal. People are hungering for churches with a high view of scripture. Healthy PCUSA churches should refuse to send anything to the national church. They then should disfellowship from men such as Moe:
Paul instructed the saints in Rome to be on the lookout for those “who are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling contrary to the doctrine.” He declared that the faithful should “turn away from” these self-serving egotists who were deceiving the innocent (Rom. 16:17).
The inspired Paul commanded the church in Thessalonica to “withdraw” from every brother who persists in walking disorderly, thus contrary to divinely received traditions (2 Thes. 3:6). Such persons, says he, are to be identified, and social company with them is to be severed. Excommunicated brethren, of course, are not to be treated harshly; rather, they are to be admonished in a brotherly fashion (14,15; cf. Gal. 6:1).
In Titus 3:10, inspiration affirms that a factious person, after appropriate admonition, is to be “refused,” i.e., refused further association.
Ken Moe and many others within the PCUSA openly teach contrary to the doctrine and divinely received traditions - it is scriptural and commanded that these people be discipline from the pulpit.
Two false teachers in the early church, Hymenaeus and Alexander, had made shipwreck of the faith, hence Paul “delivered [them] unto Satan,” i.e., he disfellowshipped them (1 Tim. 1:19-20; cf. 1 Cor. 5:5) for the welfare of the brethren. False teaching, if allowed to go unchecked within the body of Christ, can eat like a cancer, and cause the faith of some to be overthrown (see 2 Tim. 2:16-18).
Once disfellowshipped these people are to be treated as unbelievers and they should not be associated with unless they are encouraged to repent.
Here is what a letter to editor wrote on www.presbyweb.com regarding MOE:
"Perhaps I am out of line, but I have some advice for Moe and other Executive Presbyters:
1.
Realize that most congregations who are unhappy with the PC(USA) think that doctrine matters. You know that it doesn’t, that what really matters is sticking together for the sake of unity in the spirit of our (nonfactually) risen Lord. Humor them. Above all, do not attempt to teach them the truth. They already suspect that you don’t believe what they believe. Explaining to them why you don’t believe what they believe tends to tip them off.
2.
Pretend that the presbytery is comprised of Presbyterians and their congregations. Act like you work for them. Let them think that they pay your salary.
3.
Thank congregations for their support as if it were a gift. Remember, if there’s one thing worse than a congregation leaving the denomination it’s a congregation staying in and withholding per capita.
4.
Go easy on the theological language. Those who are unhappy in the PC(USA) are fluent. If you want to persuade congregations to stay in, don’t make a Scriptural appeal to unity in the Spirit as if Scripture settles the matter or they’ll ask why Scripture doesn’t settle the other matters as well.
5.
Avoid the word “schism”. The only reason those doctrine affirming, Bible believing Christians take schism seriously is because they believe that schism grieves their Lord. But there’s the rub: apparently others things grieve their Lord as well. Things like the inability of denomination leaders to affirm basic Christian doctrine. And the support of Biblically condemned sexual practices also seems to be a problem for their Lord. If you’re not careful you’ll convince them that schism has already occurred and that leaving is an act of faithfulness."
I know of a church that was a small country congregation that had to pay an exhorbitant amount in blackmail to free themselves. They were told to tell no one or the deal was off.
Here is what another letter to the editor of www.presbyweb.com had to say about MOE:
Thank you for bringing to our attention the "Executive Presbyter's Report to the Presbytery of Grand Canyon" by Ken Moe. After reading the full text of Moe's report I was struck by what concerned him most. Any specificity of theological norms would, in his opinion, lead to "heresy trials" and "purges". Yet, when it comes to anyone cutting off the money flow to his presbytery he said, "But if any should decide by proper vote to depart from the PC(USA), let there be no secession without compensation! I pledge to protect the historic mission of this presbytery from the economic ravages of schism."
I was probably not the only reader to recall Karl Marx's critique of the Church of England in the preface of the German edition of Das Kapital:
"The English established church will more readily pardon an attack on 38 of its 39 articles (of religion) than on 1/39th of its income."
and his brother ....just Moe
And it was so nice of Mr Moe to illustrate that for us.
Ping for later reading
What audacity - advocating adherence to standards!!!!!
Here is more about Ken Moe:
This is from a sermon by Dr. James R. Uhley on 02-29-2004
at Horizon Presbyterian Church in Phoenix, AZ.
"At a recent Presbytery meeting, our Executive Presbyter, Ken Moe said something like, “I’m a sinner and you are all sinners. Even though Christ has redeemed us, we still sin. Since the Presbytery is so full of sinners, you don’t expect this Presbytery to be perfect do you?” Well, the truth is we do. Maybe not expect perfection, but our standards are high for church life."
Dear Reporter,
I hope you will not mind prayers from a Catholic. I pray that you and all other Presbyterians who are struggling to have their church remain true to the Faith of the Gospels and the historic teaching and tradition of your Church.
All orthodox Christians lose when churches embrace the
values of the popular culture. I know we have theological disagreements but I have no doubt that you truly love and serve the Lord with your full heart and mind.
It saddens me that at a time when the world so needs to hear the Gospel that good Christians too often have to turn their attention to people like Mr. Moe . God keep you.
All current PCUSA churches and pastors have shown that they are willing to compromise scriptural standards. They are only arguing with the liberals about how much to compromise the truth, not whether to compromise it.
So it would be wrong to consider any of them to be theologically conservative. The battle now is between the moderates and the liberals.
Speaking of Presbyterian news, did you see where the Presbytery had finally whipped the session at First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood, CA into line and convinced them to force out the senior pastor for his moderate views?
Of course there are ways to persuade a Presbytery to "adjust it's attitude". If for example, the congregation in question takes on massive amounts of debt as did Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church just before it attempted to leave the mainline denomination...i suspect that you get the idea.
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