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To: jo kus
"yes, there is nothing we have that is not a gift - BUT - we see this as a gift that we can use or not.

And this my friend is the Pelagius error. WE make a decision. WE use. Augustine realized this problem. As he points out, what precisely are we "using" to make this determination that we haven't been given by God? Our minds? Our intellect? What are we choosing once we've been "enlightened"? Whether we want to go to hell or not? Seems to me once we are "enlightened" the decision would be a no brainer.

How we make this determination is precisely because of God. Everything that we have and are comes from God.

Even our will to be cleansed has to come from God. If we have no will to be cleansed then it has never come from God. This "we can" is what binds the EO, the RCC and many Protestants together today but it was never the view of Augustine or the early western church. There is no choice.

376 posted on 10/01/2005 11:17:31 AM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48)
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To: HarleyD
And this my friend is the Pelagius error. WE make a decision.

That is not true. Pelagianism is the idea that we can make such decisions WITHOUT God and His grace, either before or after our initial justification. He believed that the unassisted human will takes the determining initiative in the matter of salvation. He didn't believe in original sin. The Church has refuted those positions. But don't go in the other extreme by saying that man, even with the aid of God, cannot make a decision to choose Him. He is our Father, not an unloving tyrant who forces us to follow His will.

Again, I point you to Phil 2:12,13. God gives us the ability to choose Him. He stirs within us the desire and will to do good. But choosing to do good with God's aid is not Pelagianism. Otherwise, WHAT is God saving? He is no longer saving someone who is in the image of God. Being in His image, we have freedom - we can reject God, which presumes that we can accept Him (but not without His aid).

Also, you are incorrect that the Early Church felt that man had no freedom. They taught that God gives sufficient grace to everyone for faith and salvation. The Scriptures also say that Christ died for the SIN of the WHOLE world. That man can decide to accept or reject God's gift does NOT deflate God's sovereignty - it is God's will to love! Love DEMANDS a choice.

Brother in Christ

377 posted on 10/01/2005 1:57:57 PM PDT by jo kus
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