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To: HarleyD
And this my friend is the Pelagius error. WE make a decision.

That is not true. Pelagianism is the idea that we can make such decisions WITHOUT God and His grace, either before or after our initial justification. He believed that the unassisted human will takes the determining initiative in the matter of salvation. He didn't believe in original sin. The Church has refuted those positions. But don't go in the other extreme by saying that man, even with the aid of God, cannot make a decision to choose Him. He is our Father, not an unloving tyrant who forces us to follow His will.

Again, I point you to Phil 2:12,13. God gives us the ability to choose Him. He stirs within us the desire and will to do good. But choosing to do good with God's aid is not Pelagianism. Otherwise, WHAT is God saving? He is no longer saving someone who is in the image of God. Being in His image, we have freedom - we can reject God, which presumes that we can accept Him (but not without His aid).

Also, you are incorrect that the Early Church felt that man had no freedom. They taught that God gives sufficient grace to everyone for faith and salvation. The Scriptures also say that Christ died for the SIN of the WHOLE world. That man can decide to accept or reject God's gift does NOT deflate God's sovereignty - it is God's will to love! Love DEMANDS a choice.

Brother in Christ

377 posted on 10/01/2005 1:57:57 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus
Well, I should clarify that some of my terms I do use rather loosely. When I say the error of Pelagius this is a misnomer. I often get chastised by the Protestants for calling them Arminians which is not accurate either. Truth be told Pelagius was a failed system refuted by the Church long ago. Cassian, a student of Pelagius, took the works of Pelagius and redeveloped them into what became Semi-Pelagianism. It was Semi-Pelagianism that the Council of Orange convened and fought against-not the Pelagius of Augustine. It is also this system that the Eastern Orthodox follow that the RCC now states they see minor differences with which, btw, I happen to agree with.

Unfortunately Semi-Pelagianism continued and was the substance fought over during the Reformation. Protestants had no sooner got their Augustinian footing back when along came Joseph Arminian who took the Semi-Pelagian model and remolded it into Arminianism. Below is a short definition of Semi-Pelagianism and Arminian beliefs. Please note how close Arminianism is to what you are saying.

I must say that I did not come to these conclusions lightly but through a lot of research on church history, reading the writings of many of the humanistic church fathers during the 11-15th centuries (the age of the Renaissance with it’s man-centered philosophies), and rereading the scriptures from a Reformed point of view. An article of interest that I stumbled across just now that articulate this history is Outlines of Theology: Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism & Augustinianism ..by A. A. Hodge. Please note of special interest #6, 7 and 8.

Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and the Protestant Arminianism were the evolutionary process of the same heresy. The Catholic position, as you have outline it is the true Arminian position. That is why there is very little difference in the Luthern/Catholic/Presbyternian/Eastern Orthodox/... churches anymore. Just about everyone follows the Arminian model which was based upon Semi-Pelagianism which was based upon Pelagianism. I don't know what you want to call it for everyone has variation of the same thing. (Even the Protestants can't decide.)

After 30 years as a Christian I believe I was in error. The Reformed position traces its roots straight back to Augustine. Luther and Calvin just refined Augustine's writings but the doctrine remains the same. It has not changed over time as has Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism and that is why I believe the Reformed position to be the true doctrine of the western church.

God saves man according to His good grace and elects those who He so desires by His sovereign choice. The scriptures are clear and the traces of this belief goes straight back to the apostles. I do believe a great many Christian brothers and sisters are in error over this.

Blessings

378 posted on 10/01/2005 3:42:39 PM PDT by HarleyD ("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48)
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