Posted on 09/18/2005 5:53:45 AM PDT by GYPSY286
I am a Christian and was raised in the Methodist Church. As an adult, I have chosen not to belong to any demonination but have attended services at the local Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God and Catholic churches.<> Last evening, a friend of mine and I got into a theological discussion after reading several passages in the Bible, and we both raised questions which neither of us could answer.<>(1)In beleiving that the Bible is the Word of God (which I do), we are all descendents of Adam and Eve and Abraham. Abraham was Jewish, as was Jesus, both who believed in the Old Testament and practiced God's laws accordingly. After Jesus's death and resurrection, he instructed his disciples to spread the Word. My question is why and when did Christians STOP the practices of the Old Testament(i.e. Yon Kippur, Passover, Saturday as the Sabbath, etc.) and REPLACE the celebration of Jesus' birth (Christmas)and His Death/Resurrection (Easter)while spreading his Word? Wouldn't true Christianity uphold the same beliefs and practices as Jesus did while spreading his Word?<>(2) If we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, one must logically believe that incest was involved - how could this be?<> If we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, wouldn't our DNA be the same? Any guidance of those more knowledgeable than I would be deeply appreciated. P.S. Can someone please instruct me on making paragraphs? I've obviously done something wrong!
Time for your famous pics, Kosta?
Catholics have that too, but for some reason only traditionalists use it. Perhaps it is only in the pre-Vatican II rite?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03761a.htm
No, I guess it's still around... http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/churchingofwomen.html
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;Gal 3:19
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal 3:24-25
Interesting! Our ritual seems to be different...
Together with being baptized and chrismated, the new-born child is also "churched." The rite of churching imitates the offering of male children to the temple according to the law of the Old Testament, particularly the offering of Christ on the fortieth day after his birth (Luke 2:22). Because of this fact, baptism in the Orthodox tradition came to be prescribed for. the fortieth day or thereabouts. In the New Testament Church both male and female children are formally presented to God in the Church with special prayers at this time.
Also at this time, once more in imitation of Old Testament practice, the mother of the new-born child is also "churched." Here we have the specific example of the purification ritual of Jesus' mother Mary (Lk 2:22). In the Orthodox tradition the churching of the mother is her re-entry into the assembly of God's people after her participation with God in the holy act of birth and after her separation from the Liturgy during her confinement. Thus, the mother is blessed to enter once more into communion with the mystery of Christ's Body and Blood in the Divine Liturgy of the Church from which she has been necessarily absent.
The new mother should be churched before the baptism of her infant so that she can be present at the sacramental entrance of her child into the Kingdom of Christ. The official service book indicates that this should be done.
Your source is definitely wrong. Firstly, there was no "change" of the Sabbath, since Sunday is not kept by Catholics as a sabbath day, as if nothing had changed except the date.
Early Christian sources such as St. Justin Martyr (~150 AD) and the Letter of Pseudo-Barnabas (~70-130 AD) indicate that Sunday was already being kept and that the Sabbath was not.
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things ... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. (Justin Martyr, First Apology, § 67)
And when they ceased, I again addressed them thus:-"Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this, that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do? Are our lives and customs also slandered among you? And I ask this: have you also believed concerning us, that we eat men; and that after the feast, having extinguished the lights, we engage in promiscuous concubinage? Or do you condemn us in this alone, that we adhere to such tenets, and believe in an opinion, untrue, as you think?" ...
And when no one responded: "Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. ... (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, §§ 10, 23)
Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” [Isa. i. 13.] Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (Letter of Barnabas)
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is referred to in Rev. 1:10.
It might help to look at the time periods involved. Abraham was not Jewish and his descendants encompass many, many people beyond the recognized Jews. While Judaism originated with Moses, it went through a lot of permutations between then and the time of the Savior. The Law of Moses was given to a people who had spent four centuries in paganism and who refused to "harken to their Lord". As a result, they received a set of complex laws designed to do two things: foreshadow the coming of the Messiah and (2) be so difficult, if not impossible, to live with that any truly thinking person would ask if anyone could make it to heaven by living that law, and thus be lead to the teachings of the absolute necessity of a Messiah.
Add to that a couple of other factors: first, some of the Law of Moses was intended only for the Levites who were called as priests, some for what became later known as Nazarenes, i.e., specific rules for specific people or times; second, the centuries of layers upon layers of legal interpretation built on the original Law of Moses, and you have something way beyond what the Lord wanted His people to live.
The coming of the Messiah fulfilled the law of sacrifice and much of the other rituals were intended to help people look forward to the coming of the Messiah. Now that it had happened, there was no looking forward, only celebrating what had happened. In the New Testament, the Lord directed that the proper sacrifices now were a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
Even today devout Jews do not live the full Law of Moses because it was designed for a temple society and the Jews have no temple today. As for the celebrations such as Yom Kippur and others, they are festivals or memorials of events in their past like Independence Day is for the United States. Many are not strictly religious holidays in the sense of a commandment from the Lord to observe such events.
The Lord asks us to look into the heart of rules and regulations and see if we could fulfill them in spirit rather than ritual. While some rituals are definitely in order, many that applied in olden times are no longer applicable. And yes, organized religion is important because we still need authority to bind and loose on earth.
How important is knowing which day is the sabbath? If I pick the wrong one will I be punished? Different denominations have different ideas on the subject. Who is right?
If you have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, everyday can be a sabbath day.
If you're seeking God's approval to have sex with your sister, I'd hold off on that.
But I'm no Bible scholar.
Since Adam and Eve were created perfect, lacking any genetic defects, it logically follows that their immediate descendants would also be perfect or nearly so. Therefore, their children could marry their own brothers and sisters without any risk of birth defects.
The divine prohibition of brother/sister marriage did not come about until long afterward, by which time the human genome had degenerated to the point where brother/sister marriages were no longer a good idea.
LOL - actually not doing either - I've been drawn to read more of the Bible and learn more history about religion. I don't quite understand why I was led into this direction but I will follow it through and learn as much as I can. Thanks to all for the input. Deeply appreciated.
It certainly didn't happen in biblical times, although many will point out passages in scripture that they claim prove it happened in biblical times. It was a gradual change and many aspects of what is called today traditional Christianity didn't get codified until well over 300 years after death of Christ. Christmas and Easter are no secret. Do a internet search on the history of Easter and Christmas and you'll see that these were pagan festivals that long pre-dated Christ.
Regardless, a "Christian" is a follower of Christ. The fact that Christ kept Passover and all of the other feasts of the Lord is indisputable. That alone should be enough for Christians to follow the way of our Lord. Many don't today mainly because of culture and tradition. It's a tough thing to buck tradition follow truth.
For more information: God's Holy Day Plan
If we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, one must logically believe that incest was involved - how could this be?<> If we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, wouldn't our DNA be the same?
Technically, yes, sisters and brother would have had to sexually reproduce. But since Adam and Eve lived hundreds of years and were presumbably having kids for most of these years, it's probable that there were dozens if not hundreds of kids.
As far as DNA I've heard theories that Adam and Eve were created with perfect DNA. Therefore there were no physical problems or birth defects that we associate with bad DNA today when siblings reproduce. As time went on sin caused DNA to become flawed, eventually causing the prohibitions against sibling sexual relations and marriage in the book of Leviticus.
Actually there's scant biblical evidence that Paul ever taught that the feasts of the Lord were somehow done away with.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths.
Col 2:17 For these are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ.
Two things you need to notice here. Paul is telling the Christians in Collosae that nobody should judge them in HOW they eat or drink and HOW they ARE celebrating the feasts, new moons, or sabbaths. The distintion is that Christians ARE celebrating the Lord's feast days.
Second point...Paul says they ARE, not were, but ARE, shadows of things to come. The Lord's holy days and the sabbath (which is one of the Lord's holy days) certainly ARE shadows of things to come. A shadow exists because the thing that is casting the shadow exists.
Abraham was a Hebrew,(a descendant of Eber)Genesis 14:13 Abraham had a son named Isaac,(Genesis 17:19)(Genesis 25:19). Isaac had a son named Jacob, (Genesis 25:26). Jacob's name was changed to Israel,(Genesis 35:10) and Israel went on to have 12 sons who became known as the 12 tribes of Israel, or the Israelites. (Genesis 35:23). One of the sons of Israel was named Judah and Judah was the father of the Jews. Christ descended from the tribe of Judah, (Genesis 49:10).
The nation of Israel later broke up into 2 kingdoms, the northern one retaining the name Israel, and the southern kingdom became known as Judah. The very first place in the Bible where you see the name Jew is II Kings 16:6. You will see that the nation of Israel is at war against the Jews.
Easter (Pascha) is not a pagan festival. Only the English name comes from that. Christians celebrate Pascha on the Sunday after Nisan 14 (Passover), just as they have done since the times of the Apostles.
Calculating Christmas - William J. Tighe
Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.
When God created Adam and Eve he created them as adults fully able to reproduce. If you notice in Genesis 3:16 God tells Eve after the original sin incident that he will greatly increase her pains during childbirth. This tells me that they had already had children prior to this, perhaps many, and under very different conditions than we are aware of. Brothers certainly could have married sisters.
In Genesis chapter 4 you will read about Cain and Abel. These boys were born after the garden party and already could have had multiple brothers and sisters born under the prior conditions. Assume that Cain and Abel were relatively young men when they had their altercation (20/30 years old). In Genesis 5:3 you will read that Adam and Eve had another son called Seth. Adam at this time is 130 years old. This means that Adam and Eve were probably over 100 years old when Cain and Abel were born.....which means they obviously had thousands of descendants at that time....and Cain could have chosen from many different sisters and nieces who would be his wife, (Genesis 4:17).
Adam went on to live to be 930 years old and had other sons and daughters, (Genesis 5:4).
It was always pointed out to me that these newly converted christians were previously pagans. Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles....not the circumcised. Why would Paul waste his time telling these folks about something they had no knowledge of before, if he was telling them to not do it. No! Like you say......he was instructing them how to do these things and ignore any and all criticism regarding it.
You do, however, have a firm grasp of certain moral principles.
I'm not sure if that's an accurate statement if you're talking about how most in the western world celebrate Easter. For example, Easter this year fell on March 27. Passover didn't occur until April 23.
Notwithstanding that, Jesus and all of his followers celebrated Passover, not Easter. Easter started off as a pagan holiday and is now an evolved tradition of traditional Christianity.
Calculating Christmas - William J. Tighe
Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.
Nearly all of the traditions and trappings associated with Christmas have their origins in pagan festival celebrating the winter solstice such as Saturnalia. In Rome, December 25th was also celebrated as the birthday of Mithra, the god of the sun.
The early church, under Pope Julius I, fixed the date of Christ's birth December 25th...over 300 years after the death of Christ.
That's fine if you want to elevate tradition over scripture. I am certain however, that Christ and nobody else mentioned in the bible ever celebrated Christmas.
Sources: Catholic Encyclopedia
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