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But is it Relevant?
Modern Reformation ^ | 1992 | Michael S. Horton

Posted on 09/13/2005 10:13:40 AM PDT by Gamecock

In every period, the church is tested for its faithfulness to the apostolic witness to Christ and him crucified. The great Liberal theologians of the last century viewed the doctrine of justification as one of those Jewish ideas out of which the church had not grown until the dawn of the Enlightenment. Sacrifice and satisfaction: a God of wrath and love simultaneously requiring and satisfying justice in one act of blood atonement, it was just more than the sophisticated Greeks of modern culture could bear. After all, God is love and exists simply to make sure everyone is happy and being looked after. The God of the Reformation was at the center of the universe, both in creation and redemption. Human beings were helpless, but "God, who is rich in mercy, while we were still dead made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph.2:5).

/cut/

Finally, William James, father of the American philosophical school known as "pragmatism," told us that Christianity ought to be measured in terms of its "cash-value in experiential terms." Whatever "worked" replaced whatever was "true." The son of a theologian, James was the first to try to blend Christianity and psychology and in the process he ended up defining the purpose of religion in terms of how much happiness it brought to the one who embraced it.

(Excerpt) Read more at modernreformation.org ...


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: atonement; bigwords; faith; justification; largebutrdpopcorn; redemption; religion; sacrifice
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1 posted on 09/13/2005 10:13:45 AM PDT by Gamecock
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
Great Reformed Ping List Ping


2 posted on 09/13/2005 10:16:20 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." Augustine)
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To: Puritan Idelette; suzyjaruki; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Wrigley; Gamecock; AZhardliner; Frumanchu; ...
From the article

So, for over two centuries, Christianity has been literally inundated with the settling dust of the Enlightenment. In the fall-out, one loss has been the sense in the popular imagination that humanity's greatest need is to be justified before a holy God. Due to the divine sense stamped on every person's conscience, there is always, in every age, some faint realization that the holy Creator is offended and requires justice, accompanied by the fear that one's own life falls far short of that mark. But, as Paul says, we suppress that knowledge (Ro.1-2). And what we have seen in the modern age is a consistent, full-scale, well-organized, orchestrated attempt to do just that: to obliterate the knowledge of sin and guilt, grace and redemption, heaven and hell from the human conscience and, hence, from the collective cultural imagination.

And, as Nietzsche so well observed, "the priests have pliantly lent their aid" in this "gelding of God."

__________________________________________________________ Ain't that the truth!

3 posted on 09/13/2005 10:19:29 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." Augustine)
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To: Gamecock

>>Whatever "worked" replaced whatever was "true."<<

"Trying some new things to get 'em in the door!" - a local Youth Pastor I recently had a conversation with.

No mention of "sin" or "repentance", just pinball machines, snacks, a pool table, and thumpity-thump music. That's apparently the new way to bring the Gospel to today's teen.

As I've been told.


4 posted on 09/13/2005 10:23:50 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow (Ransomed from the Fall.)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
All that matters is people in the pew, not equipping them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

The question that has been asked here before, and is worth asking again, are we feeding sheep or amusing goats?


5 posted on 09/13/2005 10:48:08 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." Augustine)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
Trying some new things to get 'em in the door!" - a local Youth Pastor I recently had a conversation with.

He should try the approach "Let's discuss why the world is screwed up" leading into a discussion of the Total Depravity of Man and the need for Christ as Savior.

A next discussion could be regarding "How could God sovereignly save anyone?" leading to a discussion of Unmerited Election.

The young Youth Pastor needs to hear the words "Aim at nothing and you hit it every time. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"

6 posted on 09/13/2005 10:51:35 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Gamecock
William James, father of the American philosophical school known as "pragmatism," told us that Christianity ought to be measured in terms of its "cash-value in experiential terms

Thanx for reminding us of William James :-). Sounds like great stuff!

7 posted on 09/13/2005 10:55:52 AM PDT by NameItClaimIt (Blab It--Grab It)
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To: Gamecock
Excellent article. One of my favorite snip...

There's a lot hidden in this message.

8 posted on 09/13/2005 10:56:12 AM PDT by HarleyD (I live in my own little world because I enjoy the company.)
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To: Gamecock

We must pray for these "ministries".


9 posted on 09/13/2005 11:08:05 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow (Ransomed from the Fall.)
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To: sr4402; ItsOurTimeNow; P-Marlowe
He should try the approach "Let's discuss why the world is screwed up" leading into a discussion of the Total Depravity of Man and the need for Christ as Savior.

Who's he gonna talk to if he doesn't get 'em in the door first?

10 posted on 09/13/2005 11:15:12 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: sr4402

Amen. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the Word of God.

Not a pool table.

I had asked about one of the youth in particular, who I knew through friends, if she was being ministered to, prayed with, etc. The response was, "no, not exactly - but she's here, she's around it, so she'll come around eventually."

The anthem from His word is "Well done, my good and faithful servant." Not "well thought", or "well intentioned", or "well absorbed".


11 posted on 09/13/2005 11:16:15 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow (Ransomed from the Fall.)
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To: Gamecock; bluepistolero; HarleyD; ItsOurTimeNow; sr4402; NameItClaimIt
The Enlightenment grew out of Arminianism.

There was no Enlightenment in Spain or Italy. Bill Buckley says the Enlightenment was one of the worst things to happen to modern man. He's corrrect.

As Arminianism worked to eclipse Reformed theology, the absolute word and rule of God became mere inklings and suggestions. The presupposition that something other than God was at work in the universe took hold and 300 years later has flowered into self-service salvation.

12 posted on 09/13/2005 11:18:57 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (Steven Wright: "So what's the speed of dark?")
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To: Corin Stormhands

>>Who's he gonna talk to if he doesn't get 'em in the door first?<<

Whomever the Lord draws to him.

There's a difference between ministering to people in your life, & inviting them to come worship with you; versus tricks, hooks and games meant to appeal to man's fleshly desires in order to get them in the door. One is honest, one bears the mark of trickery and deceit.


13 posted on 09/13/2005 11:19:19 AM PDT by ItsOurTimeNow (Ransomed from the Fall.)
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To: Gamecock
And, as Nietzsche so well observed, "the priests have pliantly lent their aid" in this "gelding of God."
For over two centuries, religious leaders--pastors, theologians, missionaries, youth workers, evangelists, have accommodated the gospel message to this cultural suppression. Because doctrines like justification do not appear to effect moral self-improvement, emotional self-fulfillment, practical self-help, or psychological self-esteem, they are at least pushed to the periphery and often abandoned altogether. How can it make me happy? How can it make me a better person? How can it give me a closer walk with Jesus? These questions seem to have erased any consciousness of the older obsession, "How can I be right with God?" One of the callers during the interview with Robert Schuller asked, "If I'm happy with my life and feel pretty good about myself as a non-Christian, why should I become a Christian?", to which our guest simply replied, "I don't know. I can't identify with that."

Imagine !

14 posted on 09/13/2005 11:25:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Gamecock
All that matters is people in the pew, not equipping them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
The question that has been asked here before, and is worth asking again, are we feeding sheep or amusing goats?

I just recently heard a preacher call it the gospel to the tares

15 posted on 09/13/2005 11:27:57 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Who's he gonna talk to if he doesn't get 'em in the door first?

Perhaps the priesthood of all believers could carry the message to them.

Just a thought...

16 posted on 09/13/2005 11:41:07 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Inveterate Pelagian by birth, Calvinist by grace.)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Who's he gonna talk to if he doesn't get 'em in the door first?

If who doesn't get them in the door first?

The answer to that question defines the difference between Calvinists and Arminians.

The Arminian will say the powers of persuasion, or even tricks and gimmicks are needed to get folks inside. If that is the case, slight of hand will be needed to keep them there.

A Calvinist will say God brings them inside, and God keeps them inside.

17 posted on 09/13/2005 11:46:48 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." Augustine)
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; Frumanchu
There's a difference between ministering to people in your life, & inviting them to come worship with you; versus tricks, hooks and games meant to appeal to man's fleshly desires in order to get them in the door. One is honest, one bears the mark of trickery and deceit.

While I'd certainly agree that there are more than enough programs out there just concerned with the numbers, I think you're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with providing a place for teenagers to come and hang out, and to hear the gospel. They are not mutually exclusive.

If you guys don't want 'em, they can come to our church. That's why we built the gym.

18 posted on 09/13/2005 11:49:41 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Gamecock

See my post #18.


19 posted on 09/13/2005 11:50:56 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Frumanchu
Just a thought...

Naaaaaaaa!
Theodoric, Barber of York


20 posted on 09/13/2005 11:51:13 AM PDT by Gamecock ("Grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire." Augustine)
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