Posted on 08/31/2005 6:10:50 PM PDT by Petrosius
Hehehe. Maybe if we riot or took shots at military aircraft.
Except that Christ makes it clear that mere surface belief is not sufficient. Matthew 25, for example.
But why don't you define "faith"? Before you do, first remember that your definition has to account for the fact that St. Paul writes that even if he has faith to move mountains, but has not love, he is nothing ... and then that he also writes that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love
Notice the emphasis
IT IS GOD THAT WORKETH IN YOU BOTH TO MAKE YOU WILL AND TO ACCOMPLISH ANY WORK .
God does not work in the unsaved.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
The fruit does not give life to the tree, the tree gives life to the fruit .
It is correct, God's grace is the engine of all good works, as the Church teaches. None of that invalidates the need for men to freely choose to do works of love.
Except that scripture never says that the sheep are different from the goats because they did good works does it?
It says that the sheep did good works and would receive a reward .
If a goat gives you its coat does it become a sheep? OR can the sheep give you a wool coat because it is a sheep .?
But why don't you define "faith"? Before you do, first remember that your definition has to account for the fact that St. Paul writes that even if he has faith to move mountains, but has not love, he is nothing ... and then that he also writes that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love
Is this written to the men that are ALREADY SAVED ? See ya need to know the audience .
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Not a word there about salvation is there? It is written to the church not the unsaved
Indeed our works do not produce grace in us, grace is unmerited favor .
Does one freely chose something against something God has ordained ( that is what the Bible calls our works) .
Man is saved by faith alone, coming out of that salvation is the desire to do good works that GOD has placed in your heart.
Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
Our works are the fruit of our salvation ..NOT ITS ROOTS .
Jesus asks can a bad tree bear good fruit? The answer is NO.
James rightly points out that a tree without fruit is dead. BUT the fruit is a result of the life of the tree not the cause of the life in the tree.
Jesus made clear that a man that does work in the name of Christ that HE has not ordained is of no eternal benefit. BUT Fruit that comes out of our salvation and is a work ordained for us to do ( not one we wanted to do for our own reasons) is the work that pleases God and is seen by men as a glory to our God.
We are saved by God for His glory , He ordains our good works for his glory, not our salvation or the recognition of men .
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but accordingto his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
If the work is done by the Grace without the cooperation of man's free will, why fear and why tremble?
If it is a work that a man has determined he wills to do by his will, why would he have fear and trembling?
As I remember the story of Jonah, God had ordained a work for him and he sure had fear and trembling
We fear because we have a responsibility to work toward God and not away from Him. Since it is our choice, and we are not omniscient, we fear to err.
But if God works through us like a gardener works through a spade, then we would not have to fear anything. A tool has no reason to fear.
gscc:
If you understand the nature of true faith from which we are saved then you understand that the transformation of your life will produce fruits or good works. A life void of the signs of the salvation experience is probably void of a true commitment to pick up your cross and follow Christ. As we experience salvation through Christ's work on the cross we will bear fruit, however there is no amount of works that will earn any degree of salvation.Mr. Lucky:
It may be we're talking past one another by our church's different traditional concepts of "faith". Be that as it may, my entry to this discussion was to answer to the obviously false charge that the doctrine of "sola gratia" was unscriptural. Whether you subscribe to "sola gratia" or not, it is clearly a belief based upon scripture. Understand that (most) orthodox Protestants draw a distinction between a sort of merely professed faith and a saving faith.Petrosius:
But if you need "a true commitment to pick up your cross and follow Christ," are you too not adding something to "faith alone?" If you say that faith includes this commitment then you are using faith in a manner other than the original Reformers. It would also be different than the way Catholics use the term "faith" when we are speaking of faith and works where faith is understood as an intellectual assent to God. Is it possible that we are saying the same thing with different meanings to the words?Mr. Lucky:I have repeatedly stated that Catholics do not believe that we earn our salvation by our works. Salvation is a complete gift. Rather the value of works, i.e. a life lived in righteousness, is that it completes the process of sanctification. This is a process that occurs after the act of faith. But a return to a life of sin after faith renders that faith useless.
The orthodox Lutheran position on Justification was stated 460 years ago in Article IV of the Augsburg Confession:Petrosius:Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strengths, merits or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.
As a Lutheran, I believe nothing more about justification and nothing less.
Does not this reduce faith to solely an intellectual assent to the saving action of Jesus Christ without the our commitment to live righteously? This is how Catholics understand the Protestant idea of salvation "by faith alone." This is also what I have often heard preached, quite explicitly, by some Evangelicals on the radio.gscc:
Reducing the doctrine of 'Salvation by faith alone' to "solely an intellectual assent to the saving action of Jesus Christ without a commitment to live righteously", is equivalent to reducing your view to equalizing it with the sale of indulgences. You have to be able to come up with something better than that.Petrosius:
This is not a charge but an attempt to understand. As I stated, I have heard this understanding preached quite explicitly by Evangelicals on the radio. This is also the Catholic understanding (misunderstanding ?) of its meaning as contained in the Augsburg Confession. If this is wrong (and here I am only speaking of the formulation of the Augsburg Confession) please show where faith, as formulated in the confession, goes beyond the belief "that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake."I know that there are many other areas in which we disagree but is it possible that the debate between "faith alone" and "faith and works" is based on the different usages of the term "faith"?Is it possible that some Protestants hold this view and others do not?
I know how debates on FreeRepublic can wander all over the place so I would ask everyone that on this thread we could keep to the question above.
That's an interesting observation.
We do not need to fear anything , that is the comfort of our faith .
Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
Isa 41:13 For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Pro 3:26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Mk.16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Jn.3:18, 36 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
Rom.1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth .... As it is written, The just shall live by faith."
Rom.3:20 "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Rom.3:28 "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Rom.4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?"
Rom.4:13 "For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
Rom.5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Rom.10:9 "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Gal.2:16 "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
Gal.3:11-12 "The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith."
Eph.2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
You can believe Sola Fide, Sola Christus or Sola Ecclesia, not both. But remember God never promised salvation by works or the church
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