Posted on 08/15/2005 9:01:28 AM PDT by Salvation
If that is all that comes to mind, if it is Paul's magnificat, then the rest of what he wrote won't weigh much. If it did we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I must say that this is a lame response and avoids the fact that in the passage I quoted St. Paul clearly does not share your belief in the assurance of salvation.
I know the passage. There are others that say different, so what do we do? All of Chapter 9 is about election. How do you deal with all of the many verses about election and weigh them against a couple of verses that almost make it seem like salvation is not secure?
There is no Chapter 9 in Philippians; there are only four chapters.
How do you deal with all of the many verses about election and weigh them against a couple of verses that almost make it seem like salvation is not secure?
Thus the insufficiency of sola scriptura and the need for a living Magisterium.
Sorry, I left out the word Romans there. It's too early, my face is sunburnt from a motorcycle ride, I have either burnt eyes or a hair in my eye and I threw my back out yesterday. So please be patient with me.
Neither term is in the bible and I have no idea what the second one is.
If Jesus is our brother than Mary is our Mother.
You do well by obeying the 4th commandment.
thats fine.....doesn't matter what order. My point was that Catholics should be the last to chastise another for disobedience to a commandment since they changed the Sabbath and don't observe it themselves.
Your point is disingenuous. Whom did I chastise in my original post?
"...There are others that say different, so what do we do? All of Chapter 9 is about election"
You must be speaking about Romans 9?
Election is something that we don't know today, but God knows right now whether we are elect. Since God sees everything as one NOW, He is aware of whether we will respond to His grace or not in the end. We can't possibly know OUR OWN status of election in the future. We can only be sure of it today - as by our fruits, we can judge ourselves. We know we are in Christ if we obey His commandments (1 John, Acts 5, etc). This is a sure sign of our election TODAY. But as you know, Biblewonk, some people will revert to the vomit that they left (Peter) and are in a worse situation than before they were "saved". Paul discusses this theme in 1 Cor 10 and Hebrews 3 and 4. The Jews were an elect people, but did they all perservere? Apparently not, and the same can be said of Christians, as Paul discusses in Romans 11 and the branches. (Sorry I don't have more specific verse quotes, I don't have my bible handy)
Regards
You told Defconw in post #117 that "you would do well to obey the 4th commandment". Maybe before you advise people to keep commandments and then tell others they are disingenous you should remove the beam from your own eye. Just a thought.
Wrong. Read the post again. You are misquoting me. I said "You do well by obeying the 4th commandment." I never said he "would do well".
It's OK I read the post properly! :)
I do no such thing. He entrusted His Word to the Catholic Church through Peter.
Catholocism condemns all who do not believe that there is a co-mediatrix (Mary) despite clear text telling us this is not so?
It is not so. No Catholic is dogmatically bound to believe Mary is Co-Mediatrix.
Do you say you know better than God? Or perhaps the 2XX + popes, many of whom have disagreed on many things, have a better handle on it.
Nope. But they were given the authority to act as Vicar of Christ on earth by Christ Himself via Apostolic Succession.
But hey, I'm just going by God's inspired word. Do you presume to say you know better than God?
No, you're going by your personal interpretation of the Scriptures without the teaching authority of the Church. Not a very good idea if you truly want a clear picture of what His Word says. And I presume nothing. I follow Christ's promise to Peter, that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Holy Mother Church. They cannot prevail, the Holy Spirit protects the Church.
What then is the truth of Christ? His Word or a tradition of the RCC?
Try the entire deposit of the Faith as found in Catholicism (Roman AND Eastern Rites) housed and protected by the Holy Spirit of God.
We all must decide this for ourselves I suppose.
The most common, and dare I say arrogant, error of Protestantism.
ok sorry. you're correct.....
but it was a mistake not disingenuous. :-)
No harm, no foul.
Is Mary an eternal being? Was she existent when the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world?
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The Bible gives us reasons how Jesus avoided being tainted by sin like all other men. Jesus was born of the seed of the woman, not the man. Sin is passed down through the seed of the man, Adam!
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The seed of the woman.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.
Mary remained a virgin until after Jesus' birth.
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Jesus Christ was never in Adam (of the seed of man)!
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Mary was born of the seed of man, her Dad Heli and by extention Adam.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Thanks for your reply.
A major thing that set the Incarnation of Jesus Christ apart from all other births is that a man was absent in the conception. Mary was a virgin with child.
Being that Mary was a virgin of the Davidic line through David's son Nathan and that Joseph, Jesus' legally adopted Father, was of the royal line of David through Solomon, made her eligible as the mother of Jesus. She contributed the humanness Jesus needed to be a valid ransom for mankind, while God provided Himself a sacrifice.
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Mary's Davidic lineage.
Luk 3:31-32
31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David,
32 Which was [the son] of Jesse,
Joseph's royal lineage.
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mary's blood line made Jesus of David's blood line(something adoption could not do). Joseph made Jesus of the Royal line (something adoption could do). Jesus received his Royal Priesthood without the taint of Adam's sin because He was uniquely the seed of the woman.
All that to say Mary was not sinless for she was conceived by her Dad Heli. Her sin nature was inescapable.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
The only exception of course, Jesus Christ who was the only perfect representation of God in human flesh.
Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Where does it say that Moses was assumed, whatever that is supposed to mean? Taken up into heaven I suppose. The bible states that Moses died and God buried him. Jesus Christ was stated to be the mediator of the New Testament, not Mary. I don't care to fight about it, but I have never understood how anyone could believe that Mary was divine. Aren't you taught to believe in the trinity, which you seem to negate by assigning divinity to a human being.
Catholics don't believe she's divine. It is their belief that she is the highest of God's creatures.
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