QUITE SO! QUITE SO! QUITE SO!
END TIMES DREAMS VISIONS PING LIST PING
Please let me know if you want on or off this list.
On the list, please. :)
I've been hearing more prophecies and claims of prophecies fulfilled from a myriad of Judea-Christian-Koranic and even other "semi-religious sects" with names that are harder to pin down..
To Quix and All: Maybe a bit off topic, but received this in email and found it to be moving and edifying.
This is from a pastor in Kitwe Zambia.
The Importance of Relationships
August 5, 2005
Many things that we call relationships are nothing more than convenience. We have hirelings, employees, running mates, partners but few become real relationships. Relationships are the bonds which grow as we walk together, talk together, and also dwell together.
What holds people together in ministry? There are at least three things.
1. It takes agreement
Amos asks, "Can two walk together unless they are in agreement?" (Amos 3:3). It takes agreement, it takes a common vision. They must agree to walk together. What do they agree on? They must agree on the destination, they must agree on the issues that bring them together.
2. It takes peace
It is not just a common vision, and agreement. David shows us this. "The men of Benjamin and Judah came to David at the stronghold. And David went out to meet them and answered them and said to them, "If you have come peaceably to me to help me." " (1 Chr. 12:16).
It takes peace. Shalom is blessing given by God when two dwell in unity. (Psalm 133:1-3).
3. It takes honour
The third element is honour. To walk together and stay together, there needs to be an honouring of one another. Abishai was honoured more than all the others, and as a result he became the leader of the Three, and the head of the army (1 Chr. 11:21).
Every relationship will be tried and tested.
David had many people around his life. He had counselors, advisors, captains and chiefs. His family came with him to Adullam, his mighty men followed him through to Ziklag. But in Psalm 38:11 he laments, "My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague, and my relatives stand afar off". There are times when we are down, when things have turned against us and are not going our way. Do we have "fair weather" friends? People who only abide when it goes well with us - then they are not real friends.
Does your plague, do your wounds drive them away? True friends stand by you through thick and thin, and if you are wounded, they will bring the balm of healing to you. How troublesome it is when all flee us in our time of trouble.
"Many good things are found in bad places"
You can find many treasures behind enemy lines. When David was thirsty and hungry he had some very faithful friends. They heard him cry for water, they broke through enemy lines and pursued water for David (1 Chr. 11:17). They risked their lives for him. These are true friends, who will risk something for you, who will endure pain on your behalf. There is no reward for them, except to see you happy.
"All good things will be tested by fire"
Every good thing that you find, every good relationship will be tested by circumstances and fire. Jesus is a wise master builder, and He tells us we are going to see testing (1 Cor. 3:11). Not every relationship is going to stand the test of time. Some will be burned away, and you will need to let them go.
God builds in three ways.
Rick Godwin has made this statement, "God will build revelationally, God will build relationally, and God will build generationally".
It takes a revelation to bring people together,especially if they meet when you are down, or "plagued". It took a revelation to call Nathaniel to Jesus. Jonathan had a revelation that David would be the next king and he would not. Even two people courting will be "struck" by one another and fall in love. They will have their eyes opened, and see the beauty and cherish each other.
God will build relationally. The only things that are going to last are built on love, not convenience; on commitment not on want or need. Love expresses itself through relationships. These cannot last except with love
(1 Cor. 13).
God will build generationally. Anything that has lasting value is carried forward through generations. Sonship is central to the way things will carry on. God is called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
God builds in three kinds of relationships
There are three kinds of relationship that last.
Covenant is central to the way God relates to His people. He is a covenant keeping God. These are expressed in marriage, in friendship, and in business.
Sonship positions you to receive inheritance, as long as you remain submitted to the will of your father. Sons are not like hirelings, they will not run away when hard times come.
God sends kingdom relationships. The issue of being sent is central to kingdom relationships. Apostles are sent ones, prophets are sent ones. God is going to send you divinely appointed men and women. He may also send you strategically into other people's lives. Be watching for kingdom connections!
Relationships are key to survival in ministry. But not everyone who calls themselves "friend" will stay when the going gets tough. It takes three things to come together, and to stay together: Agreement, peace, and respect.
Every relationship will be tested by fire. Trial, sickness, and stress will test people's faithfulness.
God builds revelationally, relationally and generationally. He builds into three kinds of relationships: Covenant, sonship, and kingdom relationships.
Stephen Mwakibinga is the senior pastor at All Nations Harvest Ministries in Kitwe, Zambia. He oversees 8 churches. This article was transcribed from his recent message at the leadership conference run by Storm Harvest in Kitwe.
Put me ON. Please!
Isaiahs Vision of the United States of America
Text: Isaiah 18: 1-7, Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia: That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled! All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches. They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them. In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.
Whenever God has a place in His providence for a man or a nation we would expect Him to have a place in His prophecy. There is a short chapter in Isaiah, which means nothing to any commentator, preacher or layman on earth unless he has discovered that the Prophet Isaiah was given a vision of America as existing and playing a conspicuous part in the providence of God among the nations of the earth.
When we remember the origin of our country, its religious settlement, its free religion and superior education, its providential guidance, its mission among the people of the earth to spread liberty among the nations, its freeing of an oppressed race, we need not be surprised that these things are all intimated by the Holy Spirit in clear prophecy concerning the nations of the world.
The text is in that part of Isaiah where the burden of the various nations is given or as the margin gives it: The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amos did see, concerning Moab; concerning Damascus; concerning Egypt; concerning the wilderness of the sea, or those nations of northern Europe where they have to dike out the water in order to till the land; concerning the valley of vision which is Palestine; and Tyre.
A LAND WITHOUT A NAME
Right in the midst of these whose future is definitely prophesied, enclosed in a circle of the known nations, a country is described and prophesied that had no name. It is in keeping with each of this circle of nations in the other sections, but these nations are all named. Here is a section, but these nations are all named. Here is a section about a people not named. A blank space is left for the title. Whereas it is said of Egypt, The burden of Egypt, and of Tyre the burden of Tyre, there follows a description of a land that had no name because it had not yet been discovered and so was unknown to the prophets.
Would it surprise you to learn that the Book intended for all ages and all lands, as well adapted to the Twentieth Century as to the First, as vocal for the needs of America and China as it was for Rome and Jerusalem, should single out America in its prophetic message? I would be more surprised if in the preview of world history these seers did not see America, than to make the discovery that our country is in Isaiahs vision than it would be for its omission.
A word of caution here: this chapter is admittedly most difficult for the interpreter Bishop Louth wrote voluminously on Isaiah, but coming to the 18th chapter he said, this is one of the most obscure prophecies; the people to whom it is addressed, the person he sends, the ambassadors, the nations to whom they are all sent, are extremely doubtful.
No commentator has ever to my knowledge definitely stated to whom this chapter refers. George Adam Smith in his two-volume commentary on Isaiah passes it by with brief and inane words showing that he had no idea of its meaning. He could not apply it to anything or anybody. Therefore, we would not be contradicting an accepted teaching should we find a meaning for it. No other land would be deprived of it should it be found to apply to the United States.
Where a passage is translated without the translator knowing its meaning, you may look for poor work in rendering both the words and the sense. So I suppose this passage represents the most inaccurate, awkward and indefinite translation to be found in the Old Testament. The first word is wrong. The Hebrew word hoi with which the chapter opens is not an exclamation of woe, but a hailing for attention, Ho. It is the same word used in the same sense as in the 55th chapter of Isaiah, Ho, everyone that thirsteth, and the whole tenor of the chapter shows that it should be translated in the same manner here, meted out and trodden down. Here the tense is wrong. It is better translated in the Revised Version; and in the Jewish translations, it is properly rendered, That meteth out and treadeth down. It is not scattered and pealed, but spread out and polished or furbished. Its land the rivers have not spoiled, but divided or quartered.
Let us give attention to the specific points of description and see if Isaiah does not clearly designate America and the government of the United States.
WHAT IS THE SYMBOL OF AMERICA?
Ho to the land shadowed with wings or literally with outstretched wings. What are we to understand by the expression? I have consulted many commentators; they follow one another in applying this prophecy to Egypt. They do so because as they say, Egypt is the land that lies beyond the rivers of Ethiopia. To corroborate their view that the allusion is to Egypt, they cite as proof the fact that it is a land shadowing with wings. This is how they interpret the wings: they say they are the two strips of land and mountain on either side of the Nile, which practically form Egypt, which represent wings. I can see no such likeness any more than I can see the man or woman in the moon.
It is claimed by one or two commentators what the expression may refer to the winged die, which was the symbol of authority in the land of Egypt. You can see it carved upon the monuments and temples at the present time; it symbolized authority in days gone by. Hence the Douay Version, the Roman Catholic Bible, interprets wings as the winged disc but Egypt is not such a land as is spoken of here. Egypt is (comparatively speaking) an insignificant country through these latter ages. It does not send its ambassadors by the sea or over the great waters. Its list of ambassadors is very limited. It may be represented in the United States and in England and in some leading countries, but it certainly has no ambassadors all over the world, as one would be led to infer would be the case from the statement made here. The nation described must be very important country to send ambassadors all over the world by the sea. Therefore, Egypt cannot fill the bill --- too significant.
Dr. George D. Watson, of California, once wrote It is a singular fact that this term; Ho to the land of outstretched wings, expressing shelter for the oppressed cannot be applied to any other country on the face of the earth. Since the world began there has never been any country that from its beginning offered a welcome and hospitality to all other people for the purpose of giving them religious and civil liberty except America.
In the prophets vision he saw a nation arise in the west, a wonderful power having a mission of service, but it had no name, so he had to describe it as the land of outstretched wings. It was by Divine providence that the eagle was selected as the emblem of the United States as a nation, and there is a deep truth hidden under this symbol that America should be in the providence of God, a land that should serve as a refuge for all the people of the earth. Its emblem is the eagle with its outstretched wings like a mother bird gathering her brood under her wings. It was to have a government for the protection of all other people, a land of religious liberty and freedom of conscience, a land that would welcome to its shores the downtrodden and the suffering people scattered abroad upon the face of all the earth.
When the leading French statesman made his address of welcome to President Wilson in the City of Paris, he spoke of Mr. Wilson as being the representative of that nation that stretched its wings abroad for the protection of Europe; and Clemenceau unwittingly used the very words of Isaiah twenty-six hundred years before, probably knowing nothing of Isaiahs prophecy, but so accurate was the fulfillment of describing the conditions he had to use the very words of Isaiahs inspired prediction.
What is our national emblem? The eagle with outstretched wings is our emblem. Look at your quarters or half-dollars or silver dollars and see its spread wings. Everywhereyou go in the United States you will see this symbol. The Hebrew is clear as light, the land of outstretched wings or shadowing with wings as in the Revised Version.
While other countries have had the eagle in their national emblem, no other country has the eagle with outstretched wings. Mexico has an eagle with closed wings; Germany has an eagle with closed wings and a double hear; Austria has an eagle, but there again it has closed wings. The United States has an eagle with spread wings; it is actually a land shadowing with wings.
Which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia. Beyond in Hebrew means west. When we look at a map the top is north, the bottoms south, the right is east and the left west. Not so with the Jews or other Orientals. They faced the sunrise. They looked eastward. Before meant east, behind or beyond meant west; his right had points south and his left to the north. Beyond the rivers of Ethiopia: meant over his shoulder --- west, Let Isaiah stand in Jerusalem, face the sunrise and describe the land beyond the rivers of Ethiopia or the land of Cush. Throw a line from Jerusalem beyond the rivers of Ethiopia and it will run over northern Africa due west and you will see no country till you strike America, the coasts of South Carolina and Georgia, which are due west from Jerusalem! This prophecy was not spoken of Egypt or of any part of Africa, but to a nation that was west of Africa; so that it could not be spoken of Asia or Europe. The words can apply to no other land on the earth but the United States of America.
That sendeth ambassadors by the sea in water drinking vessels upon the great waters. The word ambassador means men or women who travel on business for the government. All our ambassadors go by water to Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia, even to Mexico, Central America and South America. They all go by the sea. Now comes one of the poorest pieces of translating: Even in vessels of bulrushes or cattails, or as the Revised Version has it, papyrus. These are poor guesses. The translators of the King James Version in 1611 came to a Hebrew compound word water drinking vessels. They had no idea what it meant so they looked around for something that grew out of the water and guessed bulrushes, cattails, flags, papyrus, but these are plants, not vessels. Dr. Cummings, a competent Hebrew scholar says, a water drinking vessel is a steamboat. There was no such thing in his day and no such word. But the word, water drinking vessel upon the great waters is a picture of the ocean liner on all the seven seas, pumping up water, distilling it, turning it into steam to propel its water drinking vessel with crew, passengers and cargo, unto all lands. If the word steamboat had been used, no human being would have known what they meant. There was no such word. Not knowing the meaning, how could you expect them to translate it? The best translation they could devise was vessels of papyrus or bulrushes or cattails. They drank water but they are not vessels, they are plants. The fact of the case is that Isaiah was looking down the ages and seeing the time when America was exercising a controlling power throughout the world by sending all its ambassadors and its soldiers and its sailors by water drinking vessels, ocean liners, a vessel that drinks up water and makes steam to propel it, on all the waters of the world!
Here is a prophecy about America which had its striking fulfillment in 1917-18 when America sent over two and half million people across the ocean, even in water-drinking vessels upon the great waters, across the Atlantic on business for the government to defeat an ambitious tyrant, and to protect other nations. It is true that all generations of people have traveled in ships, and nations have sent their soldiers and sailors across the sea, but never since the world was made has any nation sent two million men on government business to fight for the liberty and safety of others. This prophecy cannot be applied to any race or nation on earth except to the United States in her action in the late war against German for the welfare of the race.
A DESCRIPTION OF OUR PEOPLE
To a nation tall and smooth, literally tall and clean-shaven. One version renders it tall and peeled as a great land befurished like a sword ready for battle. The margin uses the word peeled instead of clean-shaven. It is evident that the prophet had a vision of the men tall like trees with the bark peeled off; but the best translation available is tall and clean-shaven. When Columbus came over here he found a people tall and smooth. The Indians were the tallest race on earth and all without beards. In the late war America raised and equipped an army of three million soldiers averaged more feet and inches in height than any other similar army ever marshalled on earth. The American soldiers that were measured five feet, eleven inches in height. This is the tallest army that world ever saw. Then a striking fact is, that of these three millions not a man wore a beard. Although many wore mustaches, there was not a full beard in the list. This item would not apply to any other army that ever marched. It does apply, however, to the native inhabitants of America as well as to our present people.
To a people terrible from their beginning onward. Did you ever bear of an infancy getting up and thrashing its mother in the process of being born? Wouldnt you call that terrible from its beginning? That is what the United States did, whipped the mightiest nation of the known world in the process of being born. This historic statement cannot apply to any other nation on the globe. Other nations have gradually acquired great power and become terrible from many respects, no other nation was terrible from its beginning onward.
Look at our past, we have never been conquered. Look forward as far as the prophet could see onward, we will never be conquered. Isaiah stands in vision and sees an unconquerable people. We have fought with England, Mexico, and each other, with Spain, and with Germany, always with the same result.
Here is an expression of prophecy which applies to no other nation. It is added by the prophet that this character of being terrible from its beginning is to continue down to the end of time. The Revised Version says terrible from their beginning and onward, but the original signifies onward to the end. Here we have an intimation that America will never be conquered from without down to the end of the ages. The only way we can be killed is by suicide. This may not prove the goodness of America; but it proves Gods plan concerning the nation; and these marvelous words of prophecy we may bank on. The one who told Isaiah knows.
THE METES AND BOUNDS ACT
A nation that meteth out and treadeth down. The literal translation would be the land measured out under the treading this is, a land measured out by lines under the feet. Here is another startling prophecy that nobody on earth could foresee except the infinite mind of God. About the time that Florida and Louisiana were taken into the Union, and Ohio taken in as a state, the government passed a law that all public lands should be surveyed by the north star, and a base line run east and west and all this land cut up into mile square sections. Our map is like a checkerboard. These sections are subdivided into quarter sections of half a mile square, which is the amount of land allotted to our soldiers and sailors for homesteads. No nation was ever so meted out in blocks before.
This is a significant thing. All the countries of the earth as in the division of the land under Joshua surveyed and marked their land by local boundaries. If you buy a lot or acre in England today, your description will begin with a rock or tree, or corner of a barn or fence and the portions of land will be defined by thee local marks.
For the first time in the human race the American government found a new way of meting out land by a general survey by measurements according to ranges with the North Star. All the land in America from the western edge of Pennsylvania to the Pacific Ocean and from Canada to Mexico has been surveyed by lines of measurement staked off in sections and quarter sections. The state of Florida, which came into the Union about 1845, after the law of general surveys, had been passed, is thus surveyed into sections.
There are millions of Americans who do not know this fact. They have no idea how the government surveys and divides all its land in sections with lines pointed due north or south; east and west, but Somebody Who know about the very habits of our nation showed this to the Prophet Isaiah twenty-six hundred years ago.
How did we get this land? We measured it off in sections and trod down the Indians and took it. Isaiah saw a land that meteth out by line and treadeth down. The story of our treading down a race is a sordid one, but a true one. Isaiah is not moralizing, but is defining and describing. We are a people that meteth out by line and treadeth down.
QUARTERED BY RIVERS
The poorest translation of all is here. The old version says, Whose land the rivers have spoiled. The margin says despise. The Revised Version comes nearer, Whose land the rivers divide. But the Hebrew word is the term used in the ritual of sacrifice where an animal is hung up and divided into four quarters. The knife cuts right down from head to foot and then across dividing it into four parts. The word should be rendered literally, quartered.
Is there any land on the earth in Europe, Asia, Africa or Australia that is quartered by rivers? There is not an ancient map or a modern one of the world that will show such as the United States. The Mississippi River takes its rise near the Canadian border and cuts right down to the Gulf of Mexico dividing our land into halves. On the western coast is the Columbia River. Follow it upward to its junction with the Snake River; follow that upward into close proximity with the source of the Missouri, which starts in Montana and meanders eastward into the Mississippi, dividing the West into halves. Follow the Ohio eastward to Pittsburgh and its junction with the Monogahela that runs by McKeesport; then follow eastward the Youghiogheny where at Glenco, Pa., it becomes the Castleman; go in upstream till Wills Creek branches off and takes its source where the Potomac begins and runs to the Bay and the Atlantic and you have the Eastern half of the nation divided in two. So the whole land that is quartered by rivers.
You cannot find any other land on earth divided in this way, into four sections: North-east, North-west, South-east, and South-west by rivers. This prophetic word can be applied to no other country than the United States.
LOOK OUT FOR AMERICA
Now comes a prophetic word more startling than any yet, All ye inhabitants of the world and ye dwellers on the earth, when an ensign is lifted up on the mountains, se ye; and when the trumpet is blown, hear ye. Whenever this people displays its flag and sounds the bugle of war, take notice, world! A people that has never been overcome in any war and is so situated that the combined armies of the world could not give their horses a drink out of our Missouri, Mississippi, or Ohio rivers in a trial of a thousand years, is too big not to have been seen by the Divine Seer, too important to be overlooked by Divine providence, and too integral a part of Gods plan for the ages to be ignored in world councils. When they rise up, see ye, and when they blow the trumpet, hear ye.
This part of the prophecy had its partial fulfillment in 1918, when our President began to deliver his messages concerning the principles of the peace conference and the conditions that should obtain in the nations forming the League of Nations, and in all the understanding and adjustments of the nations and boundaries after the great war. Ignoring politics and personalities, the prophet saw our armies becoming the decisive factor in the Great War.
These prophetic words have been quietly reposing in an unnoticed chapter of Gods inimitable Book for twenty-six long centuries, and not till our day were they brought out of their quiet resting place and fulfilled as a literal stupendous fact before the eyes of the whole world. There is much light yet to break out of Gods Holy Book. God saw this nation, Lift up en ensign on the mountains, and blow the trumpet. The fulfillment of this scripture by all that has transpired in the World War is so perfect that it is impossible to misconstrue it or to apply it to any other nation.
NATIONAL BENEVOLENCE PREDICTED
In that time shall a present be brought unto Jehovah of hosts from a people tall and clean shaven, from a people terrible from their beginning and onward, a nation that meteth out by line and treadeth down, whose land the rivers have quartered, to the place of the name of the Jehovah of hosts, the mount Zion. If you were asked to give the best symbol of the United States, you could not do better than quote the opening words of our text, Ho, to the land of outstretched wings. And if you were asked to name the chief characteristic of America you could not do better than quote the last verse, At that time shall a present be brought from a people; whose description is identified with the United States.
The word present or gift is in the original a generic term and includes all gifts and presents. When Cuba asked to be freed from a yoke of tyranny, we sent our young men to fight their cause. We fed the starving in Puerto Rico. Gave propensity to the Philippines, the open door to China. Built the Panama Canal and conquered the dread disease of yellow fever. When Ireland was starving, we sent her great cargoes of food. When Japan was shaken by earthquake, all hearts were stirred, but America sent more food and clothing and medicine and money than all the rest of the world put together. This was true when Belgium starved and Europe grew hungry.
Look at the facts. Since the Great War began, this American Nation has sent so many nations gifts and presents of everything that one can mention. We have sent wheat, corn, meats, all kinds of foodstuffs, ammunition, medicine, first aid equipment, railroad materials, timber, nurses, teachers, surgeons, soldiers, ministers, artists, laborers, and cash money not only by millions but by hundreds of millions to help the needy nations of Europe and of Western Asia. Such a scene was never witnessed before in the history of the human race. All the gifts of all other nations seem but a drop in the bucket compared to the gifts that were sent from America to European nations.
The prophet sees in that time, the time of United States history, shall the present be brought to the Jehovah of hosts from this people. The sending of relief in foodstuffs, medicine, munitions of war, and all kinds of benevolence and donations have been of a magnitude that startles the wildest imagination and surpasses anything that could have been dreamed of a few years ago. There is no parallel to this in the history of the world. The Almighty God saw this and showed it to His prophet and he put it down in the ever-growing Book and we stand amazed when we read these words with so exact and literal a fulfillment that he "who runs may read.