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To: nobdysfool; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl

Hi, nbdy.

It is not possible for God to dispense with His knowledge, otherwise, that would be the same as saying that He doesn't know, thereby rendering Him less than God.

Nor do I see how deciding can precede knowing, unless we are willing to state that God (1) makes decisions without information, or (2) God was incapable of acquiring information that did not yet exist.

#1 would mean that God is without knowledge which renders Him less than God.

#2 would mean that God is dependent on contingency which is open theism.


354 posted on 08/03/2005 5:16:00 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins; Frumanchu
It is not possible for God to dispense with His knowledge, otherwise, that would be the same as saying that He doesn't know, thereby rendering Him less than God.

Who said anything about Him dispensing with His Knowledge? Read what I said again. What I said was it does not follow that His knowledge of who would believe was the basis for His choice of them to salvation. You are saying that he chose them because He saw that they would believe. That's circular reasoning.

Nor do I see how deciding can precede knowing, unless we are willing to state that God (1) makes decisions without information, or (2) God was incapable of acquiring information that did not yet exist.

Again, you are failing to see or assimilate what I said. I never said He makes decisions without information, because that is a clear fallacy when speaking about God, for it is impossible for Him to "not know" anything. Number 2 is obviously false as well, because it is impossible for Him to not be able to acquire information that does not yet exist. Remember, we're speaking of His decision in eternity. Don't bring it into temporal time, because that's not when He made His choice of who to save. Also, information which does not yet exist in His perception is impossible, because information that does not exist is not information, because if it did exist, exists, or will exist, He already has known it from eternity. He perceives and knows all there is, and has perceived and known it from all eternity.

God certainly can know who will believe (He knows all of mankind, and has always known them, that is, know that they exist), and yet base His choice of whom He will save on His own Good Pleasure, and not their foreseen faith. Inevitably, your view winds up with man's choice of God driving His choice of them to salvation, which is putting the effect before the cause, the cart before the horse. It is logically impossible.

372 posted on 08/03/2005 6:02:51 AM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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