Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
Thanks.
He did, in fact, give them centuries of warnings (Methuselah's name means "His Death Shall Bring," and it's no coincidence that Enoch walked so closely with God for 300 years after his birth), plus another 120 years during which Noah was actually building the ark. There was no surprise here.
Was God "fair" when he destroyed the women and the children and the babes in the womb and arms in Sodom without giving them time to repent ?
Again, yes, because He did give them time to repent. God provided that Lot lived among them for some years, and they respected Lot enough to make him an elder of the city--but they didn't repent despite seeing what a righteous man was like. Further, God gave Abraham victory over the Kings of the East in defense of Sodom and Gomorrah, so they would know His deliverance. They had no excuse of "unfairness."
Was God "fair" when he killed all the "innocent" 1st borns in Egypt or drown the army that was just following orders?
Yep. First of all, I rest assured that those children who were below the age of accountability were given mercy in the next life, so their deaths would have been more of a punishment to the parents than to the child--and those above the age of accountability had participated in the suppression of the Hebrews, so they were culpable.
Further, God was fair even in His mercy. All who painted their doorposts with lamb's blood were "passed over" by His Angel. All who did not lost their firstborn. There was no distinction between Hebrew and Egyptian in this. Further, they had seen nine plagues already, so those who did not take the warning of the 10th seriously made their own bed and slept in it.
Your understanding of these Scriptural events is pretty darn shallow, you realize. Perhaps if you spent more time simply reading God's Word without putting everything through the Calvin filter, you might find your understanding of His Mercy and Justice to be greatly improved.
Well, I did say hardly anyone would be precluded...but I don't remember any mention of compassion.
You're going to have to explain what clean hands, and pure heart mean. I've never gone to jail, committed rape, murder or robbery, or been convicted of a crime..are my hands clean? I don't know how to measure the purity of a heart, either.
That must be why I'm having such a hard time. Good of you to remind him.
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." -- Romans 11:7-11
Even the unbelief of the Jews was ordained by God so that you and I would obtain saving faith in Jesus Christ, Marlowe.
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" -- Numbers 23:19
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" -- Romans 9:22-24.
"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:9-10
Calvinism IS Protestantism. Calvinism is the faith of the reformation . it is the faith that brought men out of the darkness into the light.
Arminianism is the gospel of men .
If you use your intellect to design a new computer problem is that work? Would you accept payment or say it is fine that you do not deserve payment because that was not work?
Stu this has gone on for years.Your inability to grasp who God is proves the point that he is only known when He chooses to reveal Himself .
I will pray that God gives you ears to hear and eyes to see and that He bless you with faith.
Why are you concerned about the best thing for Charles Manson? God will punish him as He wills.
Is hell punishment or rehabilitation, x?
(Mat 5:22 KJV) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(Mat 5:29-30 KJV) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. {30} And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(Mat 10:28 KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Mat 23:33 KJV) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(Luke 16:23 KJV) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Luke 16:28 KJV) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Mat 3:10 KJV) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 3:12 KJV) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
(Mat 13:40 KJV) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
(Mat 13:42 KJV) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:50 KJV) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 18:8 KJV) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
(Mat 25:41 KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(Mat 25:46 KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Mark 9:44, 46, 48 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mark 9:49 KJV) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
(Luke 16:24 KJV) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(James 3:6 KJV) And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
(Rev 14:11 KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:10 KJV) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 20:10, 14-15 KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Heb 10:27 KJV) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Jude 1:7 KJV) Even as Sodom and Gammorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
It'll probably go on for years to come...it's what we do, besides how will I ever know if I don't ask? Maybe someday, someone will be able to explain convincingly.
As I've always said, if I wake up tomorrow believing differently, so be it...I'll make the announcement asap on FR.
And you.
Just as God warns men today ? Did God offer all of them a ride on the ark? The ark is a type of Christ and it was God who selected who would be saved in it.
He did not warn them of the coming flood, he never told Noah to explain it to them. They had never seen rain, they thought Noah was nuts
God did not say every one that wants to be saved CHOOSE to come onto the ark. There was no chorus as "Just as I am played" That was not an option . God was sovereign over who would be saved by it . God chose to destroy man because of JUST WHO THEY WERE
Was God "fair" when he destroyed the women and the children and the babes in the womb and arms in Sodom without giving them time to repent ?
Again, yes, because He did give them time to repent. God provided that Lot lived among them for some years, and they respected Lot enough to make him an elder of the city--but they didn't repent despite seeing what a righteous man was like. Further, God gave Abraham victory over the Kings of the East in defense of Sodom and Gomorrah, so they would know His deliverance. They had no excuse of "unfairness."
Lot became one of them, he never called them to repentance did he? (chapter and verse please.).Note that He offered his daughters to the crowd, he was an elder there because he became comfortable in the sin of that city and could look the other way . God showed Lot mercy by saving him . It was a mercy God did NOT offer to anyone else . God did not send a angel to the city to ask who would CHOOSE to be saved. He simply executed judgment and spared who HE CHOOSE
Yep. First of all, I rest assured that those children who were below the age of accountability were given mercy in the next life, so their deaths would have been more of a punishment to the parents than to the child--and those above the age of accountability had participated in the suppression of the Hebrews, so they were culpable.
LOL, so YOU are going to assure me that those infants "UNDER THE AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY" were given mercy in the next life..
May I have your citations on an "age of accountability" in scripture ? (there is none) That is another man made doctrine that makes "sense to men" but is not anywhere in Gods word.
That doctrine was thought up because men look at infants as "innocent" when God sees them as guilty .
If anyone was saved on that day it was because of Gods MERCY ( what man did NOT deserve) , not base on their worth.
Further, God was fair even in His mercy. All who painted their doorposts with lamb's blood were "passed over" by His Angel. All who did not lost their firstborn. There was no distinction between Hebrew and Egyptian in this. Further, they had seen nine plagues already, so those who did not take the warning of the 10th seriously made their own bed and slept in it.
Of course there was a distinction in this.. God TOLD THE JEWS he did not tell the Egyptians. He did not say " Every one that wants to be saved CHOOSE to get under the blood.
"This is what the LORD says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.’ Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel. All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, ‘Go, you and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will leave." Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh. (Exodus 11:4-8)
God gave Moses specific instructions as to how the Israelites were to prepare for this night when all Egypt wept. The details are significant because they are all designed to teach a lesson to the Israelites and those who would come after them. He did NOT give them to Egypt . He did not say to the people of Egypt. "CHOOSE " to come under the blood
How "fair " was that ?
Your understanding of these Scriptural events is pretty darn shallow, you realize. Perhaps if you spent more time simply reading God's Word without putting everything through the Calvin filter, you might find your understanding of His Mercy and Justice to be greatly improved.
My friend the Rock barely causes ripples in your pond of understanding
LOLOL!!!
Did you read the snotty remarks she was responding to, or do you just criticize Calvinists?
I was just singing.
Any criticism you read into that is in your own mind.
I think you misunderstand the nature of Mercy. Justice is getting what we deserve. Mercy is getting what we don't deserve. By its very nature, Mercy cannot exist except against the backdrop of Justice. Also, Mercy by its very nature is selective. whereas Justice is not.
The Gospel offers Mercy and Grace to all who believe, but it is only those whom God enables to believe who will actually receive it. Because of the depraved nature of man, he not only cannot, he will not believe on Christ unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates his heart to spiritual life, so that he CAN believe and receive. Man simply does not have the ability to choose Christ on his own.
Your concepts of a "real offer", a "fair chance", assumes that man can, by an act of his own will, without any outside help, decide to believe on Christ. but that flies in the face of Jesus own words in John 6, "No man can come to Me unless it has been given to him by my Father". That statement alone establishes that man cannot do it on his own, and the he needs help from God. Also implicit in that statement is the fact that the Father does not give it to all men to come to Jesus, or Jesus would have indicated so.
Your understanding of these Scriptural events is pretty darn shallow, you realize. Perhaps if you spent more time simply reading God's Word without putting everything through the Arminian filter, you might find your understanding of His Mercy and Justice to be greatly improved.
Now that happens to be true here... But I would never say it :)
You are a much better FReeper and Christian than to simply enter the thread and throw darts.
I'm always happy to read your opinions, but not your hit-and-run barbs.
They do nothing to further the discussion. Instead, they'll often derail the thread entirely, making it seem like that was your real purpose in posting.
Amen.
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