Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
Does God So Love the World?
by: John MacArthur
Love is the best known but least understood of all God's attributes. Almost everyone who believes in God these days sees Him as a God of love. I have even met agnostics who are quite certain that if God exists, He must be benevolent, compassionate, and loving.
All those things are infinitely true about God, of course, but not in the way most people think. Because of the influence of modern liberal theology, many suppose that God's love and goodness ultimately nullify His righteousness, justice, and holy wrath. They envision God as a benign heavenly grandfather-tolerant, affable, lenient, permissive, devoid of any real displeasure over sin, who without consideration of His holiness will benignly pass over sin and accept people as they are.
Liberal thinking about God's love also permeates much of evangelicalism today. We have lost the reality of God's wrath. We have disregarded His hatred for sin. The God most evangelicals now describe is all-loving and not at all angry. We have forgotten that "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31). We do not believe in that kind of God anymore.
We must recapture some of the holy terror that comes with a right understanding of God's righteous anger. We need to remember that God's wrath does burn against impenitent sinners (Psalm 38:1-3). That reality is the very thing that makes His love so amazing. Only those who see themselves as sinners in the hands of an angry God can fully appreciate the magnitude and wonder of His love.
In that regard, our generation is surely at a greater disadvantage than any previous age. We have been force-fed the doctrines of self-esteem for so long that most people don't really view themselves as sinners worthy of divine wrath. On top of that, religious liberalism, humanism, evangelical compromise, and ignorance of the Scriptures have all worked against a right understanding of who God is. Ironically, in an age that conceives of God as wholly loving, altogether devoid of wrath, few people really understand what God's love is all about.
How we address the misconception of the present age is crucial. We must not respond to an overemphasis on divine love by denying that God is love. Our generation's imbalanced view of God cannot be corrected by an equal imbalance in the opposite direction, a very real danger in some circles. I'm deeply concerned about a growing trend I've noticed-particularly among people committed to the biblical truth of God's sovereignty and divine election. Some of them flatly deny that God in any sense loves those whom He has not chosen for salvation.
I am troubled by the tendency of some-often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine-who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe. I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency.
The argument inevitably goes like this: Psalm 7:11 tells us "God is angry with the wicked every day." It seems reasonable to assume that if God loved everyone, He would have chosen everyone unto salvation. Therefore, God does not love the non-elect. Those who hold this view often go to great lengths to argue that John 3:16 cannot really mean God loves the whole world.
Perhaps the best-known argument for this view is found the unabridged edition of an otherwise excellent book, The Sovereignty of God, by A. W. Pink. Pink wrote, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." [1] He further argued that the word world in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world…") "refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from 'the world of the ungodly.'"[2]
Pink was attempting to make the crucial point that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love. The gist of his argument is certainly valid: It is folly to think that God loves all alike, or that He is compelled by some rule of fairness to love everyone equally. Scripture teaches us that God loves because He chooses to love (Deuteronomy 7:6-7), because He is loving (God is love, 1 John 4:8), not because He is under some obligation to love everyone the same.
Nothing but God's own sovereign good pleasure compels Him to love sinners. Nothing but His own sovereign will governs His love. That has to be true, since there is certainly nothing in any sinner worthy of even the smallest degree of divine love.
Unfortunately, Pink took the corollary too far. The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God's attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that those mercies flow out of God's boundless love? It is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners.
We must understand that it is God's very nature to love. The reason our Lord commanded us to love our enemies is "in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45). Jesus clearly characterized His Father as One who loves even those who purposefully set themselves at enmity against Him.
At this point, however, an important distinction must be made: God loves believers with a particular love. God's love for the elect is an infinite, eternal, saving love. We know from Scripture that this great love was the very cause of our election (Ephesians 2:4). Such love clearly is not directed toward all of mankind indiscriminately, but is bestowed uniquely and individually on those whom God chose in eternity past.
But from that, it does not follow that God's attitude toward those He did not elect must be unmitigated hatred. Surely His pleading with the lost, His offers of mercy to the reprobate, and the call of the gospel to all who hear are all sincere expressions of the heart of a loving God. Remember, He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but tenderly calls sinners to turn from their evil ways and live.
Reformed theology has historically been the branch of evangelicalism most strongly committed to the sovereignty of God. At the same time, the mainstream of Reformed theologians have always affirmed the love of God for all sinners. John Calvin himself wrote regarding John 3:16, "[Two] points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." [3]
Calvin continues to explain the biblical balance that both the gospel invitation and "the world" that God loves are by no means limited to the elect alone. He also recognized that God's electing, saving love is uniquely bestowed on His chosen ones.
Those same truths, reflecting a biblical balance, have been vigorously defended by a host of Reformed stalwarts, including Thomas Boston, John Brown, Andrew Fuller, W. G. T. Shedd, R. L. Dabney, B. B. Warfield, John Murray, R. B. Kuiper, and many others. In no sense does belief in divine sovereignty rule out the love of God for all humanity.
We are seeing today, in some circles, an almost unprecedented interest in the doctrines of the Reformation and the Puritan eras. I'm very encouraged by that in most respects. A return to those historic truths is, I'm convinced, absolutely necessary if the church is to survive. Yet there is a danger when overzealous souls misuse a doctrine like divine sovereignty to deny God's sincere offer of mercy to all sinners.
We must maintain a carefully balanced perspective as we pursue our study of God's love. God's love cannot be isolated from His wrath and vice versa. Nor are His love and wrath in opposition to each other like some mystical yin-yang principle. Both attributes are constant, perfect, without ebb or flow. His wrath coexists with His love; therefore, the two never contradict. Such are the perfections of God that we can never begin to comprehend these things. Above all, we must not set them against one another, as if there were somehow a discrepancy in God.
Both God's wrath and His love work to the same ultimate end-His glory. God is glorified in the condemnation of the wicked; He is glorified in every expression of love for all people without exception; and He is glorified in the particular love He manifests in saving His people.
Expressions of wrath and expressions of love-all are necessary to display God's full glory. We must never ignore any aspect of His character, nor magnify one to the exclusion of another. When we commit those errors, we throw off the biblical balance, distort the true nature of God, and diminish His real glory.
Does God so love the world? Emphatically-yes! Proclaim that truth far and wide, and do so against the backdrop of God's perfect wrath that awaits everyone who does not repent and turn to Christ.
Does the love of God differ in the breadth and depth and manner of its expression? Yes it does. Praise Him for the many manifestations of His love, especially toward the non-elect, and rejoice in the particular manifestation of His saving love for you who believe. God has chosen to display in you the glory of His redeeming grace.
[1]Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1930), 29-30.
[2]Ibid., 314.
[3]John Calvin, Commentary on a Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, William Pringle, trans. (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979 reprint), 123.
Adapted from The God Who Loves © 2001 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved.
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He did, in fact, give them centuries of warnings (Methuselah's name means "His Death Shall Bring," and it's no coincidence that Enoch walked so closely with God for 300 years after his birth), plus another 120 years during which Noah was actually building the ark. There was no surprise here.
Was God "fair" when he destroyed the women and the children and the babes in the womb and arms in Sodom without giving them time to repent ?
Again, yes, because He did give them time to repent. God provided that Lot lived among them for some years, and they respected Lot enough to make him an elder of the city--but they didn't repent despite seeing what a righteous man was like. Further, God gave Abraham victory over the Kings of the East in defense of Sodom and Gomorrah, so they would know His deliverance. They had no excuse of "unfairness."
Was God "fair" when he killed all the "innocent" 1st borns in Egypt or drown the army that was just following orders?
Yep. First of all, I rest assured that those children who were below the age of accountability were given mercy in the next life, so their deaths would have been more of a punishment to the parents than to the child--and those above the age of accountability had participated in the suppression of the Hebrews, so they were culpable.
Further, God was fair even in His mercy. All who painted their doorposts with lamb's blood were "passed over" by His Angel. All who did not lost their firstborn. There was no distinction between Hebrew and Egyptian in this. Further, they had seen nine plagues already, so those who did not take the warning of the 10th seriously made their own bed and slept in it.
Your understanding of these Scriptural events is pretty darn shallow, you realize. Perhaps if you spent more time simply reading God's Word without putting everything through the Calvin filter, you might find your understanding of His Mercy and Justice to be greatly improved.
Well, I did say hardly anyone would be precluded...but I don't remember any mention of compassion.
You're going to have to explain what clean hands, and pure heart mean. I've never gone to jail, committed rape, murder or robbery, or been convicted of a crime..are my hands clean? I don't know how to measure the purity of a heart, either.
That must be why I'm having such a hard time. Good of you to remind him.
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." -- Romans 11:7-11
Even the unbelief of the Jews was ordained by God so that you and I would obtain saving faith in Jesus Christ, Marlowe.
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" -- Numbers 23:19
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" -- Romans 9:22-24.
"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:9-10
Calvinism IS Protestantism. Calvinism is the faith of the reformation . it is the faith that brought men out of the darkness into the light.
Arminianism is the gospel of men .
If you use your intellect to design a new computer problem is that work? Would you accept payment or say it is fine that you do not deserve payment because that was not work?
Stu this has gone on for years.Your inability to grasp who God is proves the point that he is only known when He chooses to reveal Himself .
I will pray that God gives you ears to hear and eyes to see and that He bless you with faith.
Why are you concerned about the best thing for Charles Manson? God will punish him as He wills.
Is hell punishment or rehabilitation, x?
(Mat 5:22 KJV) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
(Mat 5:29-30 KJV) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. {30} And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(Mat 10:28 KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Mat 23:33 KJV) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(Luke 16:23 KJV) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Luke 16:28 KJV) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Mat 3:10 KJV) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 3:12 KJV) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
(Mat 13:40 KJV) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
(Mat 13:42 KJV) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:50 KJV) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 18:8 KJV) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
(Mat 25:41 KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(Mat 25:46 KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Mark 9:44, 46, 48 KJV) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mark 9:49 KJV) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
(Luke 16:24 KJV) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(James 3:6 KJV) And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
(Rev 14:11 KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:10 KJV) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 20:10, 14-15 KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Heb 10:27 KJV) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Jude 1:7 KJV) Even as Sodom and Gammorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
It'll probably go on for years to come...it's what we do, besides how will I ever know if I don't ask? Maybe someday, someone will be able to explain convincingly.
As I've always said, if I wake up tomorrow believing differently, so be it...I'll make the announcement asap on FR.
And you.
Just as God warns men today ? Did God offer all of them a ride on the ark? The ark is a type of Christ and it was God who selected who would be saved in it.
He did not warn them of the coming flood, he never told Noah to explain it to them. They had never seen rain, they thought Noah was nuts
God did not say every one that wants to be saved CHOOSE to come onto the ark. There was no chorus as "Just as I am played" That was not an option . God was sovereign over who would be saved by it . God chose to destroy man because of JUST WHO THEY WERE
Was God "fair" when he destroyed the women and the children and the babes in the womb and arms in Sodom without giving them time to repent ?
Again, yes, because He did give them time to repent. God provided that Lot lived among them for some years, and they respected Lot enough to make him an elder of the city--but they didn't repent despite seeing what a righteous man was like. Further, God gave Abraham victory over the Kings of the East in defense of Sodom and Gomorrah, so they would know His deliverance. They had no excuse of "unfairness."
Lot became one of them, he never called them to repentance did he? (chapter and verse please.).Note that He offered his daughters to the crowd, he was an elder there because he became comfortable in the sin of that city and could look the other way . God showed Lot mercy by saving him . It was a mercy God did NOT offer to anyone else . God did not send a angel to the city to ask who would CHOOSE to be saved. He simply executed judgment and spared who HE CHOOSE
Yep. First of all, I rest assured that those children who were below the age of accountability were given mercy in the next life, so their deaths would have been more of a punishment to the parents than to the child--and those above the age of accountability had participated in the suppression of the Hebrews, so they were culpable.
LOL, so YOU are going to assure me that those infants "UNDER THE AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY" were given mercy in the next life..
May I have your citations on an "age of accountability" in scripture ? (there is none) That is another man made doctrine that makes "sense to men" but is not anywhere in Gods word.
That doctrine was thought up because men look at infants as "innocent" when God sees them as guilty .
If anyone was saved on that day it was because of Gods MERCY ( what man did NOT deserve) , not base on their worth.
Further, God was fair even in His mercy. All who painted their doorposts with lamb's blood were "passed over" by His Angel. All who did not lost their firstborn. There was no distinction between Hebrew and Egyptian in this. Further, they had seen nine plagues already, so those who did not take the warning of the 10th seriously made their own bed and slept in it.
Of course there was a distinction in this.. God TOLD THE JEWS he did not tell the Egyptians. He did not say " Every one that wants to be saved CHOOSE to get under the blood.
"This is what the LORD says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.’ Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel. All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, ‘Go, you and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will leave." Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh. (Exodus 11:4-8)
God gave Moses specific instructions as to how the Israelites were to prepare for this night when all Egypt wept. The details are significant because they are all designed to teach a lesson to the Israelites and those who would come after them. He did NOT give them to Egypt . He did not say to the people of Egypt. "CHOOSE " to come under the blood
How "fair " was that ?
Your understanding of these Scriptural events is pretty darn shallow, you realize. Perhaps if you spent more time simply reading God's Word without putting everything through the Calvin filter, you might find your understanding of His Mercy and Justice to be greatly improved.
My friend the Rock barely causes ripples in your pond of understanding
LOLOL!!!
Did you read the snotty remarks she was responding to, or do you just criticize Calvinists?
I was just singing.
Any criticism you read into that is in your own mind.
I think you misunderstand the nature of Mercy. Justice is getting what we deserve. Mercy is getting what we don't deserve. By its very nature, Mercy cannot exist except against the backdrop of Justice. Also, Mercy by its very nature is selective. whereas Justice is not.
The Gospel offers Mercy and Grace to all who believe, but it is only those whom God enables to believe who will actually receive it. Because of the depraved nature of man, he not only cannot, he will not believe on Christ unless the Holy Spirit first regenerates his heart to spiritual life, so that he CAN believe and receive. Man simply does not have the ability to choose Christ on his own.
Your concepts of a "real offer", a "fair chance", assumes that man can, by an act of his own will, without any outside help, decide to believe on Christ. but that flies in the face of Jesus own words in John 6, "No man can come to Me unless it has been given to him by my Father". That statement alone establishes that man cannot do it on his own, and the he needs help from God. Also implicit in that statement is the fact that the Father does not give it to all men to come to Jesus, or Jesus would have indicated so.
Your understanding of these Scriptural events is pretty darn shallow, you realize. Perhaps if you spent more time simply reading God's Word without putting everything through the Arminian filter, you might find your understanding of His Mercy and Justice to be greatly improved.
Now that happens to be true here... But I would never say it :)
You are a much better FReeper and Christian than to simply enter the thread and throw darts.
I'm always happy to read your opinions, but not your hit-and-run barbs.
They do nothing to further the discussion. Instead, they'll often derail the thread entirely, making it seem like that was your real purpose in posting.
Amen.
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