Does God So Love the World? (John MacArthur)

OnePlace.com ^ | July 21, 2005 | John MacArthur

[blue-duncan]

Well, He loved (agape) Jesus, His son, and had Him crucified for me. I admit I can't wrap my mind around that incongruity.

[suzyjaruki]

I think John 3:16 is rightly viewed by BBW.

To believe that God the Father would send his son to die for the sins of the whole world, in a universal sense, is put the Trinity at odds with one another, since the Holy Spirit does not follow through by saving everyone that Jesus would have died for.

[Bear_Slayer]

I will be back tomorrow, and I look forward to someone explaing why God made this waterfall for His creations.

God created in man something that can demostrate his fantastic glory. All of creation (apart from mankind) is glorious. However, trees, rocks and base animals, fall short of the ability to recognize and appreciate God's creative skills, and worship Him as He, the Artist desires and deserves.

Man was created so that he could do this and worship his creator.

However, Man must have the ability to reject God. If he lacks this ability, he is just another rock, tree, base animal.

God foreknew that man would reject Him and without the threat of the waterfall of eternal damnation, mankind would continue to ignore and reject God.

God also planned for the death of His Son on the cross for mankind's redemption - an even weightier reason for mankind to appreciate and worship Him.

[RnMomof7]

Well, He loved (agape) Jesus, His son, and had Him crucified for me. I admit I can't wrap my mind around that incongruity.

First and foremost the cross vindicated the righteousness of God and secondly saved the elect. His agape love is no guarantee that the world will not have tribulation or pain .. the REAL PROOF of that love of the Father was in the resurrection of the Son, and in the Resurrection of the elect when Christ returns

You need to tell me how God can agape the people he listens to scream day and night for eternity

[RnMomof7]

God foreknew that man would reject Him and without the threat of the waterfall of eternal damnation, mankind would continue to ignore and reject God.
God also planned for the death of His Son on the cross for mankind's redemption - an even weightier reason for mankind to appreciate and worship Him.

But he did not know if that cross would save anyone did he?

[Bear_Slayer]

Thank you. I can't say that it is original, though. I've picked it up along the way.

It does seem to offer a satisfactory answer to the elect vs. freewill question; both of which are taught in the bible. God bless.

[Bear_Slayer]

I'm not sure I understand the direction of your question.

He either has all knowledge or he doesn't. If he does, then surely he knew who would repent and believe.

[RnMomof7]

The plan of salvation was from before the creation of the earth.

Before men were created, so God did not know if anyone would come right? It might be that Christ died and not one man chose to repent and believe.

[k2blader]

Sometimes I struggle with this too.

You may get the response, "Because God wills it to be so, because God is God (you aren't), etc.", but while true, these kinds of comments don't really *explain* it.

I don't think any living human knows the full explanation to this one. (And if he claims to, don't trust him.)

[Bear_Slayer]

The plan of salvation was from before the creation of the earth.

Yes, but his omniscience existed before the creation or it's not true omniscience.

It might be that Christ died and not one man chose to repent and believe.

I suspect that Jesus would have died even if not one person would repent and believe. The cross demostrates his mercy and judgment. He would be righteous and merciful eveni if no one was willing to receive salvation.

[Bear_Slayer]

A satisfactory answer

[k2blader]

A nice answer, but it still doesn't explain *why* God creates people knowing they will ultimately suffer terribly.

[Corin Stormhands]

I suspect that Jesus would have died even if not one person would repent and believe. The cross demostrates his mercy and judgment. He would be righteous and merciful eveni if no one was willing to receive salvation.

Excellent point Bear_Slayer. And it points out the false argument of saying the cross was meaningless if no one responded.

To say it was only meaningful because of those it saved is to imply that we were worth saving. Which of course gets back to our earlier questions of why some of the GRPLS think there was something about us that was pleasing to God.

The more correct way is to know that God always knew who would be saved by the cross. And he knew those who would chose to reject it, even though it was freely offered.

[blue-duncan]

"You need to tell me how God can agape the people he listens to scream day and night for eternity"

The same way He heard His Son cry out on the cross. No one understands the ways of God or the mind of God or how He acts towards all of His creation. How He deals with those who have rejected His offer of love and salvation is beyond anything we can think or imagine, just the same way we can't fathom what it will be like spending eternity with Him. We see these things only darkly and to presume to know all about His love and its application to His "world", to me, is hubris.

[blue-duncan]

"To believe that God the Father would send his son to die for the sins of the whole world, in a universal sense, is put the Trinity at odds with one another, since the Holy Spirit does not follow through by saving everyone that Jesus would have died for."

But that is what he is saying, it appears.

[Quester]

I suspect that Jesus would have died even if not one person would repent and believe.

... or ... if even one would.

[P-Marlowe]

I do not believe there is a waterfall of destruction...

Imagine that.

Then you must believe that either there is no heaven as well or you do not believe that God is just.

but I am concerned with why others believe there is.

I think that correctly not believing in hell is a much more dangerous position to be in than incorrectly believing that there will not be such a place.

This concern stems from the fact that I have seen many people spend much time and effort trying to avoid it, I would like to know why.

Actually most people are spending their time and effort doing all they can to avoid going to heaven. Avoiding hell is easy and requires no effort whatsoever. IMO, avoiding heaven, resisting the saving call of the gospel of Christ, thumbing your nose at the creator of the universe, resisting the Holy Spirit takes a lot of effort and is clearly not worth the reward.

[visually_augmented]

RnMom:"You need to tell me how God can agape the people he listens to scream day and night for eternity."

Interesting point RnMom! Assuming one agrees that he does not love those writhing in hell, how could God possibly love them while on earth and then suddenly make an about face when they pass on. This would imply that God changes his mind???

Although completely off subject, what does this say about God's attitude for the elect before vs. after they repent and believe? I would suppose that God, in his eternal view of His creation, loves the elect even prior to their calling...

[P-Marlowe]

I would suppose that God, in his eternal view of His creation, loves the elect even prior to their calling...

The gist of the article is that MacArthur believes that God so loved the whole world... including the reprobates.

I take it you would disagree with MacArthur on that point? I take it that you believe that God has no love whatsoever for those he does not elect?

[P-Marlowe]

Correction:

I think that correctly not believing in hell is a much more dangerous position to be in than incorrectly believing that there will not be such a place.