Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
I think Gill does a fine job explaining "world " here on this particular verse
Verse 2. And he is the propitiation for our sins,.... For the sins of us who now believe, and are Jews:
and not for ours only; but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:
but also for [the sins] of the whole world; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles amle, "the world"; and Mlweh lk, "the whole world"; and Mlweh twmwa, "the nations of the world" {l}; See Gill on "John 12:19"; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see John 3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that hrpk Nhl Nya, "there is no propitiation for them" {m}: and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say {n}, "it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, amle ylwk, "the whole world" went after him;" which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere {o} it is said, "amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";" which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place {p}, "amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;" where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said {q}, when "R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), amle ylwk, "the whole world" stood up before him;" that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added {r}, "when a great man makes a mourning, amle ylwk, "the whole world" come to honour him;" i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, ygylp al amle ylwk, "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent {s}; yrbo amle ylwk, "the whole world" are of opinion {t}, are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" {u}, only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world," or "the whole world," in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luke 2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1 John 5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins," the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1 John 2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for John 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them.
God restrains NO MAN from coming to them, indeed He "permits" the non elect to choose as they will, and indeed they will ALWAYS choose as they will.
Then He doesn't actually bring it about, He only provides the circumstances and sits back to watch what happens. The individual is the one who really brings it about.
The bible is a fascinating book, and this is a great discussion we've had over these many years. We've learned a lot about the book that we'd never really thought our way through before, haven't we?
And much more to learn.
(BTW, I've made a study decision)
I think you might be mistaking information content for repentance and faith, imo. God provides all the content and the conviction and the encouragement that is necessary to fall overwhelmed in repentance and faith.
The one who resists is, though, as you say, rebelling against God's gracious offer in Christ.
"Though he doesn't actually bring it about."
Fru, you have said that God does not believe for you. Are you changing your mind on that?
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Of Course He knew, He ordained it
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
We agree on that one.
Good!
Go back and read it again. He was taking your premise to its logical conclusion, perhaps with just a touch of sarcasm.
Key word: "Then"
Nbdy, sincerely I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm thick-headed sometimes. I went back and looked at the "then" and still didn't get it.
Can you rephrase it for me?
X
BS - If God, out of love, chose to throw a rope to every person that floated by, it would demostrate His love for all mankind - He loves all mankind. All one has to do to be saved, is choose to grab the rope.
PM - The Calvinist will obviously insist that reprobates have no arms.
If we are to continue with the analogy appropriately, Calvinist would more likely say that none of the people have arms (elected and unelected alike) and that God lassos the elect. God allows the unelected to carry on their wayward course.
Conversely, the Arminian stance would be more as PM describes. Those not predestined to Christ have no arms - only the believers.
I do not think so, you think God fore-knew what SHE willed to do
I believe God knew what He would do. That is a BIG gap
Perhaps you can answer why God even made the waterfall of destruction, especially since He created all the people that will float by, and drown or be saved, by His own creation?
Nope. The difference here is one of efficacy. If faith will without fail always come about as the result of God's work in them, then it can be said God brought that faith about as He was the determining factor in its efficacy (by simple virtue of His choice to do so).
I don't think God is a she.
????
Maybe God is both..or neither!!
You are elected from the standpoint of eternity. You are saved from the standpoint of time. There was a point in time when you were saved. If you are like me, then you can name the very date and hour. There was a point "in time" when Christ took up residence in you.
There was no point "in time" when you were elected.
(Courtesy Alamo Girl Ping)
Then what you are saying is that you did not believe for yourself, but that God believed for you.
He did not give you arms to grab, but instead dragged you kicking and screaming from the stream. Correct?
So when Jesus (a Jew) says to Nicodemus (a Jewish ruler) that "God so loved the 'world'" He was actually telling him that God loved the Gentiles, and didn't come to condemn the Gentiles but to save them, if you follow Gill's tortured logic.
I find it interesting, that while a lot of people can discuss/argue over why someone was or was not pulled from the stream prior to being swept over the waterfall of destruction, no one will explain why there is a waterfall of destruction, in the first place.
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