Posted on 08/01/2005 8:16:45 PM PDT by buckeyesrule
How could anyone possibly know what God knows, or when He knew it?
Foreknowledge means much more than "knowing ahead of time."
To be God He must always have been omniscient.
He did not "grow" into omniscience. Otherwise there would be a time when He wasn't God.
Omniscience means knowing everything.
Yes, I know that. I was responding to your question to those people about when God knew something. What kind of an answer did you expect from them?
Omniscience means knowing everything without exception for all eternity.
I expect them to state that omniscience means knowing everything without exception from eternity.
Really? How much more?
OK, I understand.
I recognize the need to establish a logical order, and it is somewhat similar to the infra/supra distinction. However you are drawing false conclusions from it.
In order to choose something (or someone) it is necessary to have knowledge of that which is being chosen from. I cannot choose to have vanilla ice cream without first knowing that it's an available option. Likewise, God must first have knowledge (in this case, foreknowledge) of an individual's existence (which of course necessarily implies a prior decision to create) before He could choose that individual.
HOWEVER, you are proceeding further in stating that it is a particular aspect of the knowledge of that individual (specifically, the foreknowledge of faith at some point in that individual's life) which leads Him to choose that individual.
When you say that "it is not possible that He did not know who would believe" in the way you are presenting it completely undermines the validity of needing to establish a logical order since you are essentially insisting foreknowledge of faith must necessarily precede all other decisions by God in the logical order. That's the only way you could say that there was not a point (logically) where God did now know who would believe.
To apply your position consistently, I could say that it is not possible that He did not know that those who would believe were those whom He had chosen to bring efficaciously to faith in Christ. Thus election was according to foreseen faith which faith He sovereignly brought about.
God's actions and decisions would then also have to be co-existent with that knowledge, meaning that God's knowledge of who would believe could be in the context of His efficaciously bringing it about (as in the Reformed view).
Thanks, Stuart.
Who said anything about Him dispensing with His Knowledge? Read what I said again. What I said was it does not follow that His knowledge of who would believe was the basis for His choice of them to salvation. You are saying that he chose them because He saw that they would believe. That's circular reasoning.
Nor do I see how deciding can precede knowing, unless we are willing to state that God (1) makes decisions without information, or (2) God was incapable of acquiring information that did not yet exist.
Again, you are failing to see or assimilate what I said. I never said He makes decisions without information, because that is a clear fallacy when speaking about God, for it is impossible for Him to "not know" anything. Number 2 is obviously false as well, because it is impossible for Him to not be able to acquire information that does not yet exist. Remember, we're speaking of His decision in eternity. Don't bring it into temporal time, because that's not when He made His choice of who to save. Also, information which does not yet exist in His perception is impossible, because information that does not exist is not information, because if it did exist, exists, or will exist, He already has known it from eternity. He perceives and knows all there is, and has perceived and known it from all eternity.
God certainly can know who will believe (He knows all of mankind, and has always known them, that is, know that they exist), and yet base His choice of whom He will save on His own Good Pleasure, and not their foreseen faith. Inevitably, your view winds up with man's choice of God driving His choice of them to salvation, which is putting the effect before the cause, the cart before the horse. It is logically impossible.
Fru, I think you've written a very honest post.
However, here's just one thing to reflect upon that sums it up for me. In personalizing this, I would use my own name, but let me use yours.
"When did God NOT know that Fru would be a believer?"
Why do you assume that God acts in accordance with what we call logic?
Do the exercise I asked of Fru at #373 using your own name, and I think you'll get a sense of what I'm saying.
We'll discuss a bit more later about why it was impossible for God to decide without knowledge.
"When did God NOT know His decision to bring xzins to faith in Christ?"
Look it up.
God has ALWAYS known of my salvation. Always. Likewise, He has always known of his grace applied before I believed that convicted me and overwhelmingly prompted me to faith in Christ, knowing that I would not resist and draw back.
He has always known of your salvation as well.
Therefore, when did He NOT know of His love for you?
OK
2 entries found for foreknowledge.
fore·knowl·edge  ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôr-n l  j, f r-, fôrnl -, fr-)n.
|
| Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. |
foreknowledge
n : knowledge of an event before it occurs [syn: precognition]
| Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University |
If you will understand that the reason you didn't draw back and resist was because His Grace made it a certainty that you wouldn't, then you will begin to see clearly.
As long as you hold out for an ability (free will) that could thwart His purpose, you are speaking unscripturally.
Free will, as most understand it, and as it is often used in these discussions, is nothing more than a manifestation of the spirit of rebellion.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.