Posted on 07/25/2005 4:28:27 PM PDT by Gotterdammerung
The other day, I heard on an evangelical station a preacher say that the RCC teaches that the fires of purgatory are as hot as the fires of hell and the only difference between the two is the duration. What does the Catholic Church teach about this?
Exact quote: "The fire of Purgatory and Hell are the same, except in duration"
| 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
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1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory. |
| 1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin. |
| 1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. |
It IS hot in Purgatory but you get to stay inside air conditioned rooms and can go out in the heat at your own choosing. Oh wait, that's Gitmo.
Undoubtedly my posting will open up new quandries.
I've heard a respected Catholic teach that Purgatory can occur in life.
Suffering can be salvific when see in in the light of Christ's suffering.
But I guess the title of the thread means that I'm not supposed to post? :)
For you review with some scripture:
The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead. For why pray for the dead, if there be no belief in the power of prayer to afford solace to those who as yet are excluded from the sight of God? So true is this position that prayers for the dead and the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls. Those who have opposed the doctrine of purgatory have confessed that prayers for the dead would be an unanswerable argument if the modern doctrine of a "particular judgment" had been received in the early ages. But one has only to read the testimonies hereinafter alleged to feel sure that the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation; and one has only to consult the evidence found in the catacombs to feel equally sure that the Christian faith there expressed embraced clearly a belief in judgment immediately after death. Wilpert ("Roma Sotteranea," I, 441) thus concludes chapt. xxi, "Che tale esaudimento", etc.,
2 Maccabees 12:39-45
1 Corinthians 3:15
Revelation 21:27
Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; Matthew 5:26; Matthew 12:32 & 36; Luke 12:47-48; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 12:22b; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:18; 1 Peter 7:37; and Jude 23. 2
Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Corinthians 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 2 Timothy 4:19.
One of the Catechism quotes said just that.
The other ideas are twistings of the Word.... It's simple, otherwise. I think some like to have the idea that their loved ones, who died without Christ, still have some hope. But there is no hope for those who died without Christ
And anyway, so much of the "purgatory" thing was tied into "paying" to get people out, etc. It was a money-making scheme. But the dead can't be moved... Jesus said this in His story of Lazarus and the rich man. Those in heaven are there to stay, and those in hell are there to stay, and there is no third choice, and no temporary wait for either
Follows are some of the scriptural basis for purgatory:
Matt 5:25-26
25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
1 Cor 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Purgatory has been a part of Tradition since the beginning of the Church. It has been written about by Tertullian, Augustine, Origen, Ambrose, and other early Church Fathers.
As to the statement you heard on the radio, I would think there's a little more to it.
Decipher the following for me?
St Matthew also makes this know:( Matthew 5:22) "But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, "You fool!" shall be liable to the fire of Hell. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will NEVER GET OUT TILL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY".
It's no different today in some places. I used to live in Ecuador, and they have a system down there where, if you're in a car accident, both parties go to prison until the mess is sorted out. In essence, when the "last penny" of what the heck happened is paid, you get out
The Jewish state was subsumed by the Roman Empire in the first century BCE. Money changing was done within the confines of the Temple. There was no money "owed" per say. It was all cash or goods in trade. Any money owed by the Jews were the taxes levied on the Jews. Deliquency to the Romans was jail time.
Christ was certainly not preaching to the Romans about getting out after their bill was paid. And Christ's used truth in His statements.
Well, I can't really answer your question, but I am quite sure that I met my deceased brother coming out of purgatory in a dream. In my drean purgatory was an office buidling on Madison Avenue, but I'm pretty sure that was just symbolic.
The sad thing is that this false teaching lets people believe that there is some hope after death. There isn't.
I had a dream about a deceased coworker in Purgatory. It was a review course for the CPA exam. He was doing okay, but not done.
But my grandfather was on the golf course.
YMMV ...
Nobody really knows for sure.
What's important though is that we Christians of all denominations do not allow our detractors to divide us. United we shall stand.
"It was a review course for the CPA exam."
LOL, that's very appropriate, given your screen name. It's good to hear another story like this. We'll see them in heaven, we hope.
We Christians will divide over false teaching like "purgatory". There is no such place, and those who die without Christ perish eternally in hell, and your prayers for them will do nothing in that day. Pray for them while they're still alive, tell them the gospel so they may believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Without that, they go to hell eternally
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