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Eastern Orthodox Ecclesiology: against false unions [my title]
orthodox Inofrmation Center ^ | 1990 | Alexander Kalimoros

Posted on 07/01/2005 2:22:18 AM PDT by kosta50

This an excerpt is from Against False Union by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros (Seattle, WA: St. Nectarios Press, 1990 [1967]), pp. 53-55 as posted on www.orthodoxinfo.com /small>

XXVIII. ECCLESIOLOGY

The commotion about union of the churches makes evident the ignorance existing as much among the circles of the simple faithful as among the theologians as to what the Church is.

They understand the catholicity of the Church as a legal cohesion, as an interdependence regulated by some code. For them the Church is an organization with laws and regulations like the organizations of nations. Bishops, like civil servants, are distinguished as superiors and subordinates: patriarchs, archbishops, metropolitans, bishops. For them, one diocese is not something complete, but a piece of a larger whole: the autocephalous church or the patriarchate. But the autocephalous church, also, feels the need to belong to a higher head. When external factors of politics, history, or geography prevent this, a vague feeling of weak unity and even separation circulates through the autocephalous churches.

Such a concept of the Church leads directly to the Papacy. If the catholicity of the Church has this kind of meaning, then Orthodoxy is worthy of tears, because up to now she has not been able to discipline herself under a Pope.

But this is not the truth of the matter. The catholic Church which we confess in the Symbol (Creed) of our Faith is not called catholic because it includes all the Christians of the earth, but because within her everyone of the faithful finds all the grace and gift of God. The meaning of catholicity has nothing to do with a universal organization the way the Papists and those who are influenced by the Papist mentality understand it.

Of course, the Church is intended for and extended to the whole world independent of lands, nations, races, and tongues; and it is not an error for one to name her catholic because of this also. But just as humanity becomes an abstract idea, there is a danger of the same thing happening to the Church when we see her as an abstract, universal idea. In order for one to understand humanity well, it is enough for him to know only one man, since the nature of that man is common to all men of the world.

Similarly, in order to understand what the catholic Church of Christ is, it suffices to know well only one local church. And as among men, it is not submission to a hierarchy which unites them but their common nature, so the local churches are not united by the Pope and the Papal hierarchy but by their common nature.

A local Orthodox church regardless of her size or the number of the faithful is by herself alone, independently of all the others, catholic. And this is so because she lacks nothing of the grace and gift of God. All the local churches of the whole world together do not contain anything more in divine grace than that small church with few members.

She has her presbyters and bishop; she has the Holy Mysteries; she has the Body and Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Within her any worthy soul can taste of the Holy Spirit's presence. She has all the grace and truth. What is she lacking therefore in order to be catholic? She is the one flock, and the bishop is her shepherd, the image of Christ, the one Shepherd. She is the prefiguring on earth of the one flock with the one Shepherd, of the new Jerusalem. Within her, even in this life, pure hearts taste of the Kingdom of God, the betrothal of the Holy Spirit. Within her they find peace which "passeth all understanding," the peace which has no relation with the peace of men: "My peace I give unto you."

"Paul, called to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ ... to the Church of God which is at Corinth ...." Yes, it really was the Church of God, even if it was at Corinth, at one concrete and limited place.

This is the catholic Church, something concrete in space, time, and persons. This concrete entity can occur repeatedly in space and in time without ceasing to remain essentially the same.

Her relations with the other local churches are not relations of legal and jurisdictional interdependence, but relations of love and grace. One local church is united with all the other local Orthodox churches of the world by the bond of identity. Just as one is the Church of God, the other is the Church of God also, as well as all the others. They are not divided by boundaries of nations nor the political goals of the countries in which they live. They are not even divided by the fact that one might be ignorant of the other's existence. It is the same Body of Christ which is partaken of by the Greeks, the Negroes of Uganda, the Eskimos of Alaska, and the Russians of Siberia. The same Blood of Christ circulates in their veins. The Holy Spirit enlightens their minds and leads them to the knowledge of the same truth.

There exist, of course, relations of interdependence between the local churches, and there are canons which govern them. This interdependence, though, is not a relation of legal necessity, but a bond of respect and love in complete freedom, the freedom of grace. And the canons are not laws of a code, but wise guides of centuries of experience.

The Church has no need of external bonds in order to be one. It is not a pope, or a patriarch, or an archbishop which unites the Church. The local church is something complete; it is not a piece of a larger whole.

Besides, the relations of the churches are relations of churches, and not relations which belong exclusively to their bishops. A bishop cannot be conceived of without a flock or independent of his flock. The Church is the bride of Christ. The Church is the body of Christ, not the bishop alone.

A bishop is called a patriarch when the church of which he is the shepherd is a patriarchate, and an archbishop when the church is an archdiocese. In other words, the respect and honor belongs to the local church, and by extension it is rendered to its bishop. The Church of Athens is the largest and, today, most important local church of Greece. For this reason the greatest respect belongs to her, and she deserves more honor than any other church of Greece. Her opinion has a great bearing, and her role in the solution of common problems is the most significant. That is why she is justly called an archdiocese. Consequently, the bishop of that church, because he represents such an important church is a person equally important and justly called an archbishop. He himself is nothing more than an ordinary bishop. In the orders of priesthood—the deacon, the presbyter, and the bishop—there is no degree higher than the office of the bishop. The titles metropolitan, archbishop, patriarch, or pope do not indicate a greater degree of ecclesiastical charism, because there is no greater sacramental grace than that which is given to the bishop. They only indicate a difference in prominence of the churches of which they are shepherds.

This prominence of one church in relation to the others is not something permanent. It depends upon internal and external circumstances. In studying the history of the Church, we see the primacy of prominence and respect passing from church to church in a natural succession. In Apostolic times, the Church of Jerusalem, without any dispute, had the primacy of authority and importance. She had known Christ; she had heard His words; she saw Him being crucified and arising; and upon her did the Holy Spirit first descend. All who were in a communion of faith and life with her were certain that they walked the road of Christ. This is why Paul, when charged that the Gospel which he taught was not the Gospel of Christ, hastened to explain it before the Church of Jerusalem, so that the agreement of that church might silence his enemies (Gal. 2:1-2).

Later, that primacy was taken by Rome, little by little. It was the capital of the Roman Empire. A multitude of tried Christians comprised that church. Two leading Apostles had lived and preached within its bounds. A multitude of Martyrs had dyed its soil with their blood. That is why her word was venerable, and her authority in the solution of common problems was prodigious. But it was the authority of the church and not of her bishop. When she was asked for her view in the solution of common problems, the bishop replied not in his own name as a Pope of today would do, but in the name of his church. In his epistle to the Corinthians, St. Clement of Rome begins this way: "The Church of God which is in Rome, to the Church of God which is in Corinth." He writes in an amicable and supplicatory manner in order to convey the witness and opinion of his church concerning whatever happened in the Church of Corinth. In his letter to the Church of Rome, St. Ignatius the God-bearer does not mention her bishop anywhere, although he writes as though he were addressing himself to the church which truly has primacy in the hierarchy of the churches of his time.

When St. Constantine transferred the capital of the Roman state to Byzantium, Rome began gradually to lose her old splendor. It became a provincial city. A new local church began to impose itself upon the consciousness of the Christian world: the Church of Constantinople. Rome tried jealously to preserve the splendor of the past, but because things were not conducive to it, it developed little by little its well-known Papal ecclesiology in order to secure theoretically that which circumstances would not offer. Thus it advanced from madness to madness, to the point where it declared that the Pope is infallible whenever he speaks on doctrine, even if because of sinfulness he does not have the enlightenment of sanctity the Fathers of the Church had.

The Church of Constantinople played the most significant role throughout the long period of great heresies and of the Ecumenical Councils, and in her turn she gave her share of blood with the martyrdom of thousands of her children during the period of the Iconoclasts.

Besides these churches which at different times had the primacy of authority, there were others which held the second or third place. They were the various patriarchates, old or new, and other important churches or metropolises. There exists, therefore, a hierarchy, but a hierarchy of churches and not of bishops. St. Irenaeus does not advise Christians to address themselves to important bishops in order to find the solution to their problem, but to the churches which have the oldest roots in the Apostles (Adv. Haer. III, 4, 1).

There are not, therefore, organizational, administrative, or legal bonds among the churches, but bonds of love and grace, the same bonds of love and grace which exist among the faithful of every church, clergy or lay. The relationship between presbyter and bishop is not a relationship of employee and employer, but a charismatic and sacramental relationship. The bishop is the one who gives the presbyter the grace of the priesthood. And the presbyter gives the layman the grace of the Holy Mysteries. The only thing which separates the bishop from the presbyter is the charism of ordination. The bishop excels in nothing else, even if he be the bishop of an important church and bears the title of patriarch or pope. "There is not much separating them [the presbyters] and the bishops. For they too are elevated for the teaching and protection of the Church .... They [the bishops] surpass them only in the power of ordination, and in this alone they exceed the presbyters" (Chrysostom, Hom. XI on I Tim.).

Bishops have no right to behave like rulers, not only towards the other churches but also towards the presbyters or laymen of the church of which they are bishop. They have a responsibility to Oversee in a paternal way, to counsel, to guide, to battle against falsehood, to adjure transgressors with love and strictness, to preside in love. But these responsibilities they share with the presbyters. And the presbyters in turn look upon the bishops as their fathers in the priesthood and render them the same love.

All things in the Church are governed by love. Any distinctions are charismatic distinctions. They are not distinctions of a legal nature but of a spiritual authority. And among the laymen there are charisms and charisms.

The unity of the Church, therefore, is not a matter of obedience to a higher authority. It is not a matter of submission of subordinates to superiors. External relations do not make unity, neither do the common decisions of councils, even of Ecumenical Councils. The unity of the Church is given by the communion in the Body and Blood of Christ, the communion with the Holy Trinity. It is a liturgical unity, a mystical unity.

The common decisions of an Ecumenical Council are not the foundation but the result of unity. Besides, the decisions of either an ecumenical or local council are valid only when they are accepted by the consciousness of the Church and are in accord with the Tradition.

The Papacy is the distortion par excellence of Church unity. It made that bond of love and freedom a bond of constraint and tyranny. The Papacy is unbelief in the power of God and confidence in the power of human systems.

But let no one think that the Papacy is something which exists only in the West. In recent times it has started to appear among the Orthodox too. A few novel titles are characteristic of this spirit, for example, "Archbishop of all Greece," "Archbishop of North and South America." Many times we hear people say of the Patriarch of Constantinople, the "leader of Orthodoxy," or we hear the Russians speaking of Moscow as the third Rome and its patriarch as holding the reins of the whole of Orthodoxy. In fact, many sharp rivalries have begun. All these are manifestations of the same worldly spirit, the same thirst for worldly power, and belong to the same tendencies which characterize the world today.

People cannot feel unity in multiplicity. Yet this is a deep mystery. Our weakness or inability to feel it originates from the condition of severance into which the, human race has fallen. People have changed from persons into separated and hostile individuals, and it is impossible for them now to understand the deep unity of their nature. Man, however, is one and many; one in his nature, many in persons. This is the mystery of the Holy Trinity, and the mystery of the Church.

XXIX. PSEUDO-BISHOPS

It is imperative that Christians realize that the Church has sacramental and not administrative foundations; then they will not suffer that which has happened to the Westerners who followed the Pope in his errors because they thought that if they did not follow him, they would automatically be outside the Church.

Today the various patriarchates and archdioceses undergo great pressures from political powers which seek to direct the Orthodox according to their own interests. It is known that the Patriarchate of Moscow accepts the influence of Soviet politics. But the Patriarchate of Constantinople also accepts the influence of American politics. It was under this influence that the contact of the Ecumenical Patriarchate with the similarly American-influenced, Protestant, World Council of Churches was brought about, and its servile disposition toward the Pope started to take on dangerous dimensions and even to exert over-bearing pressure upon the other Orthodox churches.

America thinks that it will strengthen the Western faction against communism if, with these artificial conciliations, it unifies its spiritual forces. But in this way the Church becomes a toy of the political powers of the world, with unforeseeable consequences for Orthodoxy.

Are the Orthodox people obliged to follow such a servile patriarchate forever? The fact that this patriarchate for centuries held the primacy of importance and honor in the Christian world cannot justify those who will follow it to a unifying capitulation with heresy. Rome also once had the primacy of importance and honor in the Christian world, but that did not oblige Christians to follow it on the road of heresy. The communion with and respect for one church on the part of the other churches remains and continues only as long as that church remains in the Church, that is, as long as it lives and proceeds in spirit and truth. When a patriarchate ceases to be a church, admitting communion with heretics, then its recognition on the part of the other churches ceases also.

The Orthodox people must become conscious of the fact that they owe no obedience to a bishop, no matter how high a title he holds, when that bishop ceases being Orthodox and openly follows heretics with pretenses of union "on equal terms." On the contrary, they are obliged to depart from him and confess their Faith, because a bishop, even if he be patriarch or pope, ceases from being a bishop the moment he ceases being Orthodox. The bishop is a consecrated person, and even if he is openly sinful, respect and honor is due him until synodically censured. But if he becomes openly heretical or is in communion with heretics, then the Christians should not await any synodical decision, but should draw away from him immediately.

Here is what the canons of the Church say on this: "... So that if any presbyter or bishop or metropolitan dares to secede from communion with his own patriarch and does not mention his name as is ordered and appointed in the divine mystagogy, but before a synodical arraignment and his [the patriarch's] full condemnation, he creates a schism, the Holy Synod has decreed that this person be alienated from every priestly function, if only he be proven to have transgressed in this. These rules, therefore, have been sealed and ordered concerning those who on the pretext of some accusations against their own presidents stand apart, creating a schism and severing the unity of the Church. But as for those who on account of some heresy condemned by Holy Synods or Fathers sever themselves from communion with their president, that is, because he publicly preaches heresy and with bared head teaches it in the Church, such persons as these not only are not subject to canonical penalty for walling themselves off from communion with the so-called bishop before synodical clarification, but they shall be deemed worthy of due honor among the Orthodox. For not bishops, but false bishops and false teachers have they condemned, and they have not fragmented the Church's unity with schism, but from schisms and divisions have they earnestly sought to deliver the Church" (Canon XV of the so-called First and Second Council).


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To: Hermann the Cherusker

"The filioque question was decided once and for all time at the First Council of Constantinople in A.D. 380. The fathers there decided that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son, period.

Really? When did they say that?" Hermann

I'm not going to discuss this with you any more Hermann. The Church has spoken.


281 posted on 07/17/2005 10:16:11 AM PDT by Graves (Orthodoxy or death!)
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To: kosta50
And how many Germans understood Latin in Luther's time? But the Roman Church insisted, as it does to this day that Latin is the universal language of the Church and should be favored.

Actually, throughout history, the Germans were more insistant on retaining Latin than Rome was. Had they proposed retaining their original Gothic, it would probably have been granted to them. You have your history backwards. Latin was not imposed and insisted upon by Rome. Rather, the various peoples of the West wanted to use Latin to show union with Rome.

Little good did that do to the multitutes who sat in RC churches and listed to something they didn't understand.

More people understood it than you think. Latin is still very close to Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Vlach, and French. Most people in the German and Celtic and Slavic lands knew enough Latin to know the rudiements of the Mass and prayers, and could sing their responses. Confession and Marriage vows, of course, were in the vernacular.

And it took the Vatican 200 years (middle of the 20th century) since the 18th c. to admit that a language other than Latin is okay?

No, the Roman Church admitted Slavonic as long ago as the times of Sts. Cyril and Methodius, and it has been in continuous useage in Dalmatia and Moravia since then.

Additionally, the Roman Church has always been in union with the Italo-Greeks of Calabria and Sicily, had no problem with the Punic of the countryfolk of Africa, the Coptic of Egypt, the Aramaic of Lebanon, Syria, and Assyria, or the Armenian tongue, or many others.

The Council of Trent admitted the liceity of the vernacular, but thought it inopportune at that time to admit it.

The East knew that for 2,000 years. The only reason Greek was the language of the Church is because it was the only liturgical language of the Gentiles, sufficiently developed to express litrurgical complexities, but the East never poposed that Greek was the "universal" languge of the Church, as your Church did for Latin.

The Church of the Roman Imperial Diocese of the East used Aramaic, not Greek, from the beginning, and it was in this language that the Gospel of Matthew, and in all probability, the Epistle to the Hebrews were written in. Latin was used from time immemorial in Africa, and came into useage in Rome and Italy by AD 200-250.

Greek never held a universal placeof useage.

282 posted on 07/17/2005 1:56:17 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Agrarian; kosta50; gbcdoj; Petrosius
The Latins also added "God from God" to the Creed without "authorization." We Orthodox generally don't complain about the canonicity of this (even though this addition is also an inadmissible alteration of the Creed, from a canonical standpoint) and generally choose to ignore it because it is not heretical.

This is sheer lunacy. Obviously, you've never read the Creed of Nicaea, or you wouldn't make these sort of ridiculous claims.

We believe in one God the Father almighty, creator of all things. And in our one Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, the only-begotten born of the Father, that is of the substance of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, born, not made, of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made, which are in heaven and on earth, who for our salvation came down, and became incarnate and was made man, and suffered, and arose again on the third day, and ascended into heaven, and will come to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit.

Added my foot! We did nothing but retain the phrasing of Nicaea.

283 posted on 07/17/2005 2:07:47 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: MarMema

Berdyaev was quite the Gnostic and anti-Ascetic. I'm surprised you quote him approvingly.


284 posted on 07/17/2005 2:33:58 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: MarMema

Berdyaev was quite the Gnostic and anti-Ascetic. I'm surprised you quote him approvingly.


285 posted on 07/17/2005 2:34:12 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Graves; kosta50; FormerLib; Kolokotronis

Reference has been made to the fact that converts to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism are traditionally required to formally renounce those things of Catholicism that are at variance with Orthodox teaching. Here is the exact wording from the Slavonic service books. I do not know what is in the old Greek service books, or how long this has been in the Slavonic service books in this form. It was the standard in pre-revolutionary Russia:

"And the Bishop questioneth the convert from the Roman-Latin Confession:

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Saviour Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father": doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man's invention: "and from the Son": is required?

Answer: I do.

Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that it doth not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, that is to say, of the whole church?

Answer: I do.

Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And the the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor: And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

Answer: I do.

Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Answer: I do.

Dost thou renounce all the other doctrines of the Western Confession, both old and new, which are contrary to the Word of God, and to the true tradition of the Church, and to the decrees of the seven Ecumenical Councils?

Answer: I do."

There are similar renunciations for the other major religions from which a convert can come. Truth to be told, these are not always used today, because not all converts to Orthodoxy do not know the faith of their rearing well enough meaningfully to renounce it, and not all ever believed it. Some priests find it meaningless to to renounce something that you never really believed, and find that the general renunciations of Satan in the exorcisms is more to the point in these people's conversions.

In my experience it is not at all unusual today for a "Lutheran" to be far more in need of specifically renouncing, say, the Zen mysticism which he had been exploring for years than of renouncing the teachings of Luther...

Anyway, there are interestingly chosen wordings in these renunciations, and I thought they might be of interest.


286 posted on 07/17/2005 2:37:42 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: kosta50
So, in the western "jargon" the ousia is translated as substance? Am I to assume, then, that the substance in this case means the same as essence or nature?

"Father and Son and Holy Spirit: indeed three Persons but one essence, substance, or nature entirely simple." (4th Council of the Lateran, AD 1215)

287 posted on 07/17/2005 2:43:57 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: kosta50
But the original theology of the Church was accurately expressed in Greek.

No, Aramaic. Christ spoke Aramaic. The Apostles spoek Aramaic. The first people evangelized in Syria, Palestine, Assyria, and Lebanon were Aramaic speakers.

288 posted on 07/17/2005 2:51:28 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Agrarian

"
Anyway, there are interestingly chosen wordings in these renunciations, and I thought they might be of interest."
OUTSTANDING! TELLS IT LIKE IT IS. NO MINCING OF WORDS.


289 posted on 07/17/2005 3:16:55 PM PDT by Graves (Orthodoxy or death!)
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To: Graves; Petrosius
Rather, the word was added in the West, beginning with the Council of Toledo in A.D. 589.

This old fairy tale again?

"The Holy Spirit in truth is neither begotten nor unbegotten, neither created nor made, but proceeding from the Father and the Son." (Creed of Damasus, 5th Century)

"The Spirit is also the Paraclete, who is himself neither the Father, nor the Son, but proceeds from the Father and the Son. Therefore the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, the Paraclete is not begotten, but proceeding from the Father and the Son." (Creed of the Council of Toledo, AD 447)

"The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding." (Atahansian Creed, 5th Century)

"The Holy Spirit is not of the Father only, or the Spirit of the Son only, but He is the Spirit of the Father and the Son." (Decree of Damasus, AD 382)

"And in the Holy Living Spirit, the Holy Living Paraclete, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son." (Profession of the Council of Seleucia, AD 410)

Of that last one, please note that Seleucia is in PERSIA. Last I checked, no one mistook PERSIA for a "western" land.

290 posted on 07/17/2005 3:26:49 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Berdyaev was quite the Gnostic and anti-Ascetic. I'm surprised you quote him approvingly.

What makes you think that?

291 posted on 07/17/2005 3:27:44 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Graves
I noticed that the papal coronation oath (ascribed to the 7th century, as published on the 'net by a sedes vacantist?)

This is the 12th century version.

You will notice it does not include the anathematization of Honorius and other heretics, which was included in the original.

292 posted on 07/17/2005 3:28:21 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Graves
I noticed that the papal coronation oath (ascribed to the 7th century, as published on the 'net by a sedes vacantist?)

This is the 12th century version.

You will notice it does not include the anathematization of Honorius and other heretics, which was included in the original.

293 posted on 07/17/2005 3:28:28 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Are you surprised that the Serbian Church and many Orthodox websites have this writing of his posted as well?

What in it do you find to be gnostic?

294 posted on 07/17/2005 3:30:40 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Agrarian; kosta50
Now this is interesting! So the Orthodox took "God of God" out of the Nicene Creed, did they? Hmmm...
When these documents had been read out, the holy synod decreed the following.

1. It is not permitted to produce or write or compose any other creed except the one which was defined by the holy fathers who were gathered together in the holy Spirit at Nicaea.

2. Any who dare to compose or bring forth or produce another creed for the benefit of those who wish to turn from Hellenism or Judaism or some other heresy to the knowledge of the truth, if they are bishops or clerics they should be deprived of their respective charges and if they are laymen they are to be anathematised. (Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, Session 6)

Under their interpretation of Ephesus, they are all anathema! :) Good thing - for them - that the Catholics are right on this point.

295 posted on 07/17/2005 3:57:06 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Without His assisting grace, the law is “the letter which killeth;” - Augustine.)
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To: Agrarian; MarMema
Christ's Body, that is to say, of the whole church

Isn't this contradictory to the modern Orthodox perspective that each Church is Christ's body, not "the whole church" which, as a concept, is rejected? This is certainly the impression that I get from MarMema's article on conciliarism, which starts out by explaining that St. Cyprian was wrong to believe in a universal Church.

296 posted on 07/17/2005 4:01:12 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Without His assisting grace, the law is “the letter which killeth;” - Augustine.)
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To: kosta50
Christ's church is like a river.

There are islands, there are byways, there are eddies and rapids.

Without the Catholics, the river would dry up.

But they aren't the river.

297 posted on 07/17/2005 4:04:00 PM PDT by Jim Noble (Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God)
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To: Graves; Petrosius; gbcdoj
Not until Augustine of Hippo was there ANYONE among the Latin fathers who taught or even suggested the filioque heresy. It is therefore a novelty and thus heresy, if only because of that. This too was been covered with great thoroughness by St. Mark of Ephesus at the Council of Florence. The Latin bishops there had no reponse to make other than scholastic proofs as opposed to patristic evidence. Don't take my word for it.

Okay, I won't.

Concerning the Holy Spirit, I ought not to remain silent, nor yet is it necessary to speak. Still, on account of those who do not know Him, it is not possible for me to be silent. However it is necessary to speak of Him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, His Sources.
St. Hilary of Poitiers, The Trintiy, 2, 29 (AD 356 to 359)

"The Holy Spirit when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself from the Son"
St. Ambrose, The Holy Spirit, 1, 11, 120, AD 381)

Following, therefore, the form of these examples, I profess that I do call God and His Word, - the Father and His Son, - two. For the root and the stem are two things, but conjoined; the fountain and the river are two kinds, but indivisible; the sun and the ray are two forms, but coherent ones. Anything which proceeds from another must necessarily be a second to that from which it proceeds; but it is not on that account separated from it. Where there is second, however, there are two; and where there is third, there are three. The Spirit, then, is third from God and the Son, just as the third from the root is the fruit of the stem, and third from the fountain is the stream from the river, and third from the sun is the apex of the ray.
Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 8, 5 (about AD 213)

Perhaps these three (among others) fell into a time warp from after St. Augustine and came to dwell before him? Otherwise, its unclear how no one preached the filioque until St. Augustine when many preached it before him.

298 posted on 07/17/2005 4:09:02 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

St. Hilary of Poitiers, The Trintiy, 2, 29 (AD 356 to 359) was speaking of the activity of the Holy Trinity, not of the hypostatic procession of the Holy Spirit.
St. Ambrose, The Holy Spirit, 1, 11, 120, AD 381) was speaking of the activity of the Holy Trinity, not of the hypostatic procession of the Holy Spirit.
Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 8, 5 (about AD 213)was not discussing the ypostatioc procession of the Holky Spirit.

Augustine of Hippo was the very first to suggest that the Holy Spirit proceeds in the hypostatic sense from the Father and the Son.

As I said earlier, Augustine is a high maintenance guy. Give him up. He's not worth it.


299 posted on 07/17/2005 4:26:43 PM PDT by Graves (Orthodoxy or death!)
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To: Graves
Secondly, the Roman excommunication was predicated on a factual error, the accusation that the Greeks had tampered with the Nicene Creed by removing the word filioque.

The Roman excommunication was based on Patriarch Michael not having come to his senses after forcibly closing all the Latin Churches of Constantinople, and taking the Blessed Sacrament out of them and having it trampled under foot in the streets.

300 posted on 07/17/2005 4:30:38 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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