Posted on 06/23/2005 6:41:22 AM PDT by wallcrawlr
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Joel Osteen, evangelism's hottest rising star, pastor for the biggest congregation in the United States.
(snip)
KING: But you're not fire and brimstone, right? You're not pound the decks and hell and dam nation?
OSTEEN: No. That's not me. It's never been me. I've always been an encourager at heart. And when I took over from my father he came from the Southern Baptist background and back 40, 50 years ago there was a lot more of that. But, you know, I just -- I don't believe in that. I don't believe -- maybe it was for a time. But I don't have it in my heart to condemn people. I'm there to encourage them. I see myself more as a coach, as a motivator to help them experience the life God has for us.
KING: But don't you think if people don't believe as you believe, they're somehow condemned?
OSTEEN: You know, I think that happens in our society. But I try not to do that. I tell people all the time, preached a couple Sundays about it. I'm for everybody. You may not agree with me, but to me it's not my job to try to straighten everybody out. The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope, that's God's for you. You can live a good life no matter what's happened to you. And so I don't know. I know there is condemnation but I don't feel that's my place.
KING: You've been criticized for that, haven't you?
OSTEEN: I have. I have. Because I don't know.
(Excerpt) Read more at transcripts.cnn.com ...
You're right, I should have said "I ain't missin' nothin'."
Better?
BTW, You're supposed to ping The Grammarian to all questions regarding Grammar.
I would hope you would be able to figure that out on your own.
Actually two different people gave me the books.
The person who gave me the Osteen book is now going to Joel's church because the message is sooooo positive.
The lady that gave me the Warren book is a Southern Baptist. As a matter of fact, one of the pastors at her (enormous) church recommends the Warren book.
Here was your last question in it's entirety:
ok, youre going to have to enlighten me then with new wisdom because I want God to heal people yet he does not do it. What am I to do?
To which I responded:
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (Jam 1:5 KJV) emphasis added.
Now if that doesn't satisfy you, then I can't help you, Sundance.
You're prayer has been answered.
I just quoted Jesus. I also quoted the Old Testament. If you have a problem with those quotes, then your problem is with Jesus and not with me. Now if you lack understanding, then don't come crying to me, take it up with God.
The fact we cannot deny is that God has made promises and if we don't think he's going to keep them, then he won't. Those promises are often conditioned. We need to see what those conditions are.
James did put some conditions on our prayers. Perhaps this will help.
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (Jam 1:6-8 KJV)
Perhaps not. The ball is in your court.
Through its ups/downs this has been an interesting conversation.
God has made promises. I agree/believe with the Bible cover to cover in every complete and literal way.
What has disappointed me specifically with your latest couple responses has to do with an example that maybe its been my fault for not making clear.
This is how I'm reading that you would respond to someone (based on that example):
If the person was a christian. You would simply quote verses and tell the person to get their faith right, ask for what they want and it will be provided.
Somehow if its not provided its completely becuase the persons faith isnt good enough. A person lays on a hospital bed suffering because my prayers arent good enough because my faith isnt good enough.
If the person is a nonchristian. I dont know what you'd say.
I agree. But so have many preaching today. My point was that success in this world does not necessarily equate to God's acceptance.
Hardly:
I made the statment some time ago, when I believe it was true. I am, however, glad that they are experiencing less profitable times now.
His TV program is excellent!!!! A very fine young man and I have his book. Great read.
Thats probably all true...but does it lead people to God's saving grace?
That seems to be the tricky question.
I'm not telling them anything of the sort. I'm merely quoting Jesus. Jesus made the promise, not me. Do you have any verses that contradict what Jesus promised?
Somehow if its not provided its completely becuase the persons faith isnt good enough. A person lays on a hospital bed suffering because my prayers arent good enough because my faith isnt good enough.
I would not dare to say that to anyone. I am not the judge of their faith. I am also not the judge as to whether or not God is faithful in their lives. All I'm doing here is quoting scripture. If you disagree with those scriptures, then take it up with God. If you have verses that contradict the impression left by Jesus in those verses, then post them. If you don't believe the verses, then obviously your petitions before God will not be heard.
I get the feeling that you don't believe that Jesus was serious or that he was being exactly truthful. Did Jesus not say:
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Mat 21:22 KJV)?
Do You believe it? I suspect from your attitude and your posts that you don't really believe it. Or you have your doubts. I suppose when things aren't really going the way we expect, that we all do. But that doesn't make the promise invalid, does it?
If the person is a nonchristian. I dont know what you'd say.
I'd say believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: (Deu 28:1 KJV)
And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. (Deu 28:2 KJV)
Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field. (Deu 28:3 KJV)
Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. (Deu 28:4 KJV)
Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store. (Deu 28:5 KJV)
Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out. (Deu 28:6 KJV)
The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways. (Deu 28:7 KJV)
The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (Deu 28:8 KJV)
The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways. (Deu 28:9 KJV)
And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee. (Deu 28:10 KJV)
And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee. (Deu 28:11 KJV)
The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow. (Deu 28:12 KJV)
And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them: (Deu 28:13 KJV)
And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. (Deu 28:14 KJV)
Aren't these the verses part of the description of the covenant God made with nation of Israel, ... and which also included curses if Israel didn't hearken unto all of God's Law ?
I really don't think that you want a part of this covenant.
Why ... the list of curses (for non-obedience) is longer than your list of blessings ...Deuteronomy 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
... (your citations)
Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand.
33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.
36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.
39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.
41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.
42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.
43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.
63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
The fact we cannot deny is that God has made promises and if we don't think he's going to keep them, then he won't. Those promises are often conditioned. We need to see what those conditions are.
James did put some conditions on our prayers. Perhaps this will help.But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (Jam 1:6-8 KJV)Also ...James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Pretty scary, huh?
Aren't these the verses part of the description of the covenant God made with nation of Israel, ... and which also included curses if Israel didn't hearken unto all of God's Law ?
Pretty scary, huh?
I'll take grace ... and however the Lord is pleased to bless me ... any day.
Indeed.
If you plan is to consume those things you pray for upon your own lusts, then you are clearly putting your own will above God's will and hence you are not asking in "Faith". Faith includes obedience and a willingness to conform your will to that of God. If we are there, then the desires of our heart will match the desires of God for our lives. Will it not?
Was not the covenant with Israel a granting of God's grace? What did Israel do to deserve the promises of God? Nothing.
But God promised them those things regardless. And if they refused to accept that grace, then those curses which followed were essentially nothing more than the natural consequences of turning your back on God.
James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Indeed.
If you plan is to consume those things you pray for upon your own lusts, then you are clearly putting your own will above God's will and hence you are not asking in "Faith". Faith includes obedience and a willingness to conform your will to that of God. If we are there, then the desires of our heart will match the desires of God for our lives. Will it not?
Absolutely.
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