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To: topcat54
No, actually the "day of the Lord" spoken of in Joel (and elsewhere in the OT prophets) was speaking often of immediate temporal judgment against either Israel or the enemies of Israel.

No they weren't. Take Isaiah 13, for example: Even if you apply that to the fall of Babylon to the Persians (and as I show in the later chapters of my book, if you simply compare what Isaiah and Jeremiah wrote prophetically to history, there's no way that they fit), you've still got a 200+ year gap.

No, the Day of the Lord is a very specific eschatological period in which Adonai alone--not the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, or Romans--would be exalted (Isa. 2). It is the time of His wrath poured upon the whole earth (Isa. 34). While we might see partial fulfillments, or dress rehersals, or remez, in history, the final fulfillment has never yet taken place.

Peter, under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, applied Joel prophecy to the events of Pentecost in Acts 2.

Joel's sign of the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars is a common theme in Scripture. It also happens to be one of those junctions that enables us to line up the various prophecies on the same timeline:



A Comparison of the Cosmic Disturbance References in Prophecy

Isa. 13:10-13

Isa. 34

Joel 2:31

Ps. 18:7-17

Rev. 6:12-17

Mt. 24:29-31

"Therefore I will make the heavens tremble . . ."





". . . and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

". . . and the earth will shake from its place . . ."



The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because He was angry."

"There was a great earthquake."


Isa. 13:10-13

Isa. 34

Joel 2:31

Ps. 18:7-17

Rev. 6:12-17

Mt. 24:29-31

"The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light."


"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the LORD."


"The sun turned black as sackcloth, and the moon as blood . . ."

"The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light . . ."

"The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light."

". . . all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."



. . . and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree . . ."

". . . the stars will fall from the sky . . ."


"All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll."


"He parted the heavens and came down . . ."

"The sky receeded like a scroll, rolling up . . ."


Isa. 13:10-13

Isa. 34

Joel 2:31

Ps. 18:7-17

Rev. 6:12-17

Mt. 24:29-31

". . . at the wrath of the LORD Almighty in the day of His burning anger."




"The the [inhabitants of the earth] hid in caves . . . [crying] hide us from the . . . wrath of the Lamb!"

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn."




"He reached down from on high and took hold of me . . . He rescued me from my powerful enemy . . ."


"And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds . ."


But could this event be the darkening of the sky that happened at Yeshua’s crucifixion, as many preterists suggest based on Ac. 2:17-21?  No.  Obviously, all the wars, rumors of wars, false prophets, famines, earthquakes, and Abomination of Desolation had not happened in the last 48 hours of Yeshua’s life.  Just as obviously, the exact same event would be described in Revelation decades later as yet future.  In Acts, Kefa is citing the presence of the Ruach HaKodesh as a fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.  He then recites the entire prophecy to get to its end, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Adonai shall be saved,” from which he launches his sermon.
And now, I need to run to lunch. I'll get back with you in a bit.
147 posted on 06/23/2005 8:59:57 AM PDT by Buggman (Baruch ata Adonai Elohanu, Mehlech ha Olam, asher nathan lanu et derech ha y’shua b’Mashiach Yeshua.)
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To: Buggman
While we might see partial fulfillments, or dress rehersals, or remez, in history, the final fulfillment has never yet taken place.

If you're going to utilize rabbinic presuppositions, you may find youself off the mark on the understanding of Scripture. The rabbinic approach, not unlike that employed by modern Christian liberals, is to discover the deeper, hidden meaning of the text. No every text has a "deeper meaning". It's pure presuppostion to suggest that it does.

It's apparent from the contexts that "day of the Lord" has primary reference to the immediate temportal judgment that God meted out on Israel and her enemies. E.g.,:

The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, "Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Wail, 'Woe to the day!' For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles. The sword shall come upon Egypt, And great anguish shall be in Ethiopia, When the slain fall in Egypt, And they take away her wealth, And her foundations are broken down. "Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, all the mingled people, Chub, and the men of the lands who are allied, shall fall with them by the sword." 'Thus says the Lord: "Those who uphold Egypt shall fall, And the pride of her power shall come down. From Migdol to Syene Those within her shall fall by the sword," Says the Lord God. "They shall be desolate in the midst of the desolate countries, And her cities shall be in the midst of the cities that are laid waste. (Ezekiel 30)
Whether or not this somehow "hints" of a final "day of the Lord" or not is the debate at hand. But it cannot be assumed. Nevertheless, the primary teaching has to do with the immediate temporal judgments. That is the case in virtually all places where the phrase is used in the Bible. The context in large part dictates the meaning.
149 posted on 06/23/2005 9:45:52 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: Buggman
Joel's sign of the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars is a common theme in Scripture.

The "sun, moon and stars" had other meaning in Scripture besides the literal cosmic entities.

"Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." "

"Then he removed the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense on the high places in the cities of Judah and in the places all around Jerusalem, and those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven. "

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars."

Wouldn't your midrash prompt you to look beyond physical entities for the deeper meaning?

It also happens to be one of those junctions that enables us to line up the various prophecies on the same timeline:

Only if they are intended to exist on the same timeline. What in your midrash would lead you to this presupposition?

150 posted on 06/23/2005 9:56:27 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: Buggman

BTW, lining phrases up in a chart as you have done from various prophecies to demonstrate a timeline seems awfully "Western" in its approach to me.


151 posted on 06/23/2005 9:58:48 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: Buggman

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

I love the parallel listings of the Scriptural refs. Thx.


236 posted on 06/25/2005 9:56:31 AM PDT by Quix (LOVE NEVER FAILS.)
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