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To: Buggman
Joel's sign of the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars is a common theme in Scripture.

The "sun, moon and stars" had other meaning in Scripture besides the literal cosmic entities.

"Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." "

"Then he removed the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense on the high places in the cities of Judah and in the places all around Jerusalem, and those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven. "

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars."

Wouldn't your midrash prompt you to look beyond physical entities for the deeper meaning?

It also happens to be one of those junctions that enables us to line up the various prophecies on the same timeline:

Only if they are intended to exist on the same timeline. What in your midrash would lead you to this presupposition?

150 posted on 06/23/2005 9:56:27 AM PDT by topcat54
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To: topcat54
The "sun, moon and stars" had other meaning in Scripture besides the literal cosmic entities.

True. Context is key:

Another question that must be answered is whether the incredible and unprecedented events described in the sixth seal will be fulfilled literally, or whether like the four horses, there is a symbolic intent. One could cite a great number of good, conservative scholars and commentators throughout the centuries who have tried to uncover the sixth’s seal allegorical meaning, ranging in opinion from the fall of Jerusalem to the fall of the Roman Empire to the persecution of the saints. Some will go so far as to present a false dilemma: Either we must view the “stars” here as being emblematic of the fall of the nations, or we must assume them to be “literal” stars, somehow traveled hundreds of light years to impact upon the earth (or, given their size, it would be more like the other way around).

Now, we have to ask ourselves, is it really illegitimate to consider “stars” to refer to heavenly bodies other than what we consider the scientific definition of “stars” today? Not at all! What contrived hermeneutic would seek to impose the meaning of a modern English word on an ancient Koine Greek one? The Greek word aster is used of planets and other luminous celestial objects, thus our word “asteroid.” Even if we consider the word “meteor,” the Greek word was formed from meta- and aeirein, the latter meaning "to lift up" (English air is related), and referred to anything in the heavens. Hence, a meteor came from the heavens, and meteorology is the study of the goings-on in that portion of the heavens nearest us. Likewise, the Hebrew word for “star,” kokab, is used of not just the fixed stars such as we think of them, but also of the planets and any other bright celestial object.

Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that when Yeshua speaks of the sun and moon darkening and the aster falling from the sky—and here, the reader should note that the Olivet Discourse reads as a simple description of events rather than a series of symbolic images—that we should understand aster in its original meaning rather than forcibly attaching to it the scientific meaning of “star” as we understand it today. Thus, many bright, celestial objects will fall to the earth—and if Yeshua was being “literal” there, then there is no reason to conclude that the same events which are described in the sixth seal—the darkening of the heavens, the earthquake, the meteor storm, and the opening of the sky—will be literal events that precede the glorious hope, the visible appearance of our Lord to take us home.

Ditto the description of the same event in Joel, the Psalms, Isaiah, etc.
154 posted on 06/23/2005 11:20:15 AM PDT by Buggman (Baruch ata Adonai Elohanu, Mehlech ha Olam, asher nathan lanu et derech ha y’shua b’Mashiach Yeshua.)
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