I believe Romans 6:4 "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."
You don't.
"Did you miss the words, "in the likeness of"? That clearly shows that baptism is a type, a representation, of the reality, and not the reality itself, which it would need to be in order to have any regenerating power."
In the likeness of what? Likeness of His death and resurrection.
But nowhere does scripture say it is a likeness of our death and resurrection. "Were buried with Him by baptism into death." That's "were", not "like when we were". "Were baptized into Jesus Christ." That's "were", not "like when we were".
Your wranglings cannot avoid the simple message in this passage. Notice, and this is important: outside of Christ --> baptism --> inside of Christ. What is the condition of those who are not in Christ?
"They must first be regenerated by God to spiritual life, in order that they may be able to hear the Word.
But it is the word which is the seed planted in the heart. 1Pet 1:23 - "you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."
You have it all backward. Life does not preceed the planting of the seed. This is the N.T. pattern for salvations, set forth by God.
HEAR THE WORD --> BELIEVE --> REPENT --> CONFESS --> BE BAPTIZED --> NEW LIFE
I've shown you several passages where this is proven: Rom 10, Rom 6. You just refuse to accept the simple truth because of your Calvinistic bias.
"Baptism does not itself bring about that joining with Him."
You know, I am reminded of the garden where the addition of one word - "not" - was the difference between the truth "you shall surely die" and a lie "you shall not surely die".
nobdysfool - "baptism does not bring about that joining" with Him
Paul - "we were baptized into Christ Jesus"
nobdysfool - "Baptism is not what saves"
Peter - "Baptism saves you"
nodysfool - "Belief (faith) is what makes the difference between salvation and being lost, NOT baptism."
Jesus - "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."
nobdysfool - "Baptism does not cause or bring about forgiveness of sins"
Ananias - "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."
"baptism is a conscious act of obedience to the already accomplished fact of having obtained salvation and forgiveness of sins."
Baptism is obedience to a fact? How do I obey a fact? Baptism is obedience to a command. And if one refuses to obey Christ's command, what does the bible say about such a one?
"Not all Calvinists believe the same regarding infant baptism."
In scripture, it's the believer who is baptized for the remission of sins. Are you prepared to say that pedo-baptists views are unscriptural and therefore that infant baptism is not of Christ? I am.
Oh, I believe that alright, just not the way you do. So don't say I don't believe it. You seem to think that baptism, the actual going into the water and coming back out, does something in the spiritual realm. That's mysticism. Baptism represents a spiritual reality. It does not cause it, or make it happen. Baptism is a physical act which represents a spiritual reality which has already taken place by faith. The same as the Lord's Supper. The bread and wine REPRESENT the Body and Blood of our Lord. Jesus said, "This do in REMEMBRANCE of Me". It is obvious that the Lord's Supper is a representation of spiritual reality, and is also commanded. Baptism is the same. It is a representation of spiritual reality, and not the reality itself.
In the likeness of what? Likeness of His death and resurrection. But nowhere does scripture say it is a likeness of our death and resurrection. "Were buried with Him by baptism into death." That's "were", not "like when we were". "Were baptized into Jesus Christ." That's "were", not "like when we were".
Yes, in the Likeness of HIS death and resurrection. Can't you understand this? Baptism is in the likeness of HIS death and resurrection. HIS, not ours. Likeness means it represents it. Likeness = type. Representation. Commemoration. HIS death and resurrection are the reality. Baptism represents, by our participation, the spiritual reality that we died, were buried, and rose again with Him, BECAUSE OF and THROUGH our spiritual union with Him, which is by FAITH in Christ. We are united with Christ by faith, and that happens BEFORE we are baptized. You cannot find one example of an unsaved, lost, unregenerate sinner going into the waters of baptism and coming up out of the water saved, regenerate, and united with Christ, BECAUSE OF the act of baptism. If a sinner is baptized, he becomes a wet sinner. Baptism does not confer salvation. Faith in Christ does. Baptism is an act of obedience to a command of Christ. Baptism is for believers, not unbelievers.
Your wranglings cannot avoid the simple message in this passage. Notice, and this is important: outside of Christ --> baptism --> inside of Christ. What is the condition of those who are not in Christ?
You make a big show of making people believe that you are the one believeing what the words say, but you don't understand what you're saying. You imbue a physical act with a false idea of spiritual power, claiming that unless one performs the physical act, the spiritual reality will not take place. Do you believe that if anyone says the words of the sinner's prayer, by the very saying of the words, they are saved? If you do, then you believe in magic and incantations. That points to a much deeper problem. You completely miss the intent and purpose of baptism. You think it actually causes one to be united with Christ, that it actually saves a person, that it actually confers forgiveness of sins on a person. That is mysticism, and a belief in magic.
You have it all backward. Life does not preceed the planting of the seed. This is the N.T. pattern for salvations, set forth by God. HEAR THE WORD --> BELIEVE --> REPENT --> CONFESS --> BE BAPTIZED --> NEW LIFE I've shown you several passages where this is proven: Rom 10, Rom 6. You just refuse to accept the simple truth because of your Calvinistic bias.
Hearing, you do not hear, and seeing, you do not see. Jesus said, "Unless a man is born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God." See means to perceive, to understand. A man must be born again (regenerated) in order to perceive the Kingdom of God. No man can embrace and believe what he cannot understand or perceive. Perception and understanding of the Kingdom of God is spiritual, it happens in the spirit, and a spiritually dead man cannot perceive spiritual things. He must be made spiritually alive for him to be able to perceive and understand spiritual things.
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co 2:14) The reason you believe regeneration happens at the end of the process is because you believe that man, by an act of his own will, without any help from God, can decide to accept Christ, and decide to repent of his sins. In so believing, you deny the sinfulness of man, you deny the depravity which sin has brought in man, and you deny scriptures which plainly teach that in order for a man to come to Christ, the Father must draw him, that a man cannot come to Christ unless it is given to him by the Father, and that man is incapable of God-pleasing acts while yet dead in his sins. It is you who has the irrational bias, because of your hatred of Reformed doctrine, commonly known as Calvinism. By your own admission, you don't really know what Calvinism teaches, you've just been told by biased sources that it is bad, and you haven't got the gumption to investigate and research it for yourself.
You know, I am reminded of the garden where the addition of one word - "not" - was the difference between the truth "you shall surely die" and a lie "you shall not surely die". nobdysfool - "baptism does not bring about that joining" with Him Paul - "we were baptized into Christ Jesus" nobdysfool - "Baptism is not what saves" Peter - "Baptism saves you" nodysfool - "Belief (faith) is what makes the difference between salvation and being lost, NOT baptism." Jesus - "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved." nobdysfool - "Baptism does not cause or bring about forgiveness of sins" Ananias - "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."
If your false accusation wasn't so blatantly wrong, it would be insulting. You are trying to draw a line between me and Satan, and plant the idea that I am speaking as the serpent in the Garden. You misrepresent what I have said, and will not deal with what I have said, but rather repeat you mantra that baptism saves, baptism forgives sins, baptism unites a person with Christ. If baptism does all that, who needs faith? You don't have to believe anything, just get dunked and voila! You're saved! You're forgiven! You're united with Christ!
Now who's telling lies?
Baptism is obedience to a fact? How do I obey a fact? Baptism is obedience to a command. And if one refuses to obey Christ's command, what does the bible say about such a one?
You know very well what I meant. You're just trying to pick apart anything I say, because you're losing ground and you know it. You keep trying to contrast obedience with disobedience. You believe that unless we view baptism as you do, even obedience is disobedience. What twisted reasoning!
In scripture, it's the believer who is baptized for the remission of sins. Are you prepared to say that pedo-baptists views are unscriptural and therefore that infant baptism is not of Christ? I am.
Until you have studied out the issue, you shouldn't be hasty to make a declaration,. You already confess an ignorance of Reformed doctrine. Don't compound it by making a statement until you know for sure that you're right. Your view of baptism in general is unscriptural, so any conclusion you make about paedo-baptism is just about 100% guaranteed to be wrong.
It is obvious that you hold to the Dispenational view. Unfortunately, the Bible, and God's dealings with men are Covenental. Dispensationalism is error. Did you read the link Dr. Ecklburg posted regarding paedobaptism? My guess is that you didn't, because you believe you know it all already. I read it. And I'm digesting it, because I don't view God's Word as static and one-dimensional, but having depths of meaning and teaching that are not evident until one begins to dig in and search out the wisdom of God.