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To: HarleyD
"And this is what we come to. Paul is a special person. Just like John the Baptist, Mary, Joseph, Peter, Jeremiah, David, etc. With all due respect, as great as these people were, God doesn’t have different modes and methods of salvation. There is only one way God saves people. He chooses them. God shows no partiality (Rom 2:11) which is what you are suggesting with Paul."

I never said the special circumstances surrounding Paul's choosing as an apostle had anything to do with his salvation. God saved Paul just like He saved me. The word was taught, Paul believed, Paul obeyed. Remember, Ananias told Paul, "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." That's what I did. And that's what the Jews on Pentecost, the Philippian jailer, Cornelius, etc. did.

With all due respect, it is you who make God a respecter of persons when you claim God specially empowers this one and leaves the other one to perdition.

God acted specially toward a lot of people for His special purposes for them (Jacob vs Esau, for example), but that didn't effect that person's salvation. Faith did.

And faith has no meaning when irresistable. It has to be a choice of the believer or it is just programming.

God chooses a class of people for salvation: those who believe and obey the gospel. The gift is available to all.

237 posted on 06/29/2005 5:26:34 AM PDT by sinatorhellary
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To: sinatorhellary
With all due respect, it is you who make God a respecter of persons when you claim God specially empowers this one and leaves the other one to perdition.

We have never said that God "empowers" some and leaves others to perdition. God ENABLES those whom He chooses.

You still have this idea that you chose to be saved. You couldn't have, unless God had enabled you, by His Holy Spirit opening your spiritual eyes and ears to see the Kingdom of God, and to hear the Word which imparted faith to believe. Your "choice" was due to His prior regeneration of your spirit IN ORDER THAT you could see, hear, and believe. Until He did that, you could not have chosen to believe. This isn't "programming" or "robotics". It is God sovereignly working on your heart, so that you can believe.

You still have never answered my question: What is it that makes one person choose Christ, and another reject Him?

238 posted on 06/29/2005 6:14:13 AM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: sinatorhellary; nobdysfool
"God acted specially toward a lot of people for His special purposes for them (Jacob vs Esau, for example), but that didn't effect that person's salvation. Faith did.

Calvinists don't believe that your salvation isn't effected without faith. As nobdysfool stated, God enables a person so they can exercise faith. And less there be any confusion faith COMES from the Word of God which is also a gift. God's grace and man's faith (which God has given him) works together to bring him to our Lord Jesus.

"With all due respect, it is you who make God a respecter of persons when you claim God specially empowers this one and leaves the other one to perdition."

Paul got the same complaint.

239 posted on 06/29/2005 7:30:48 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: sinatorhellary; HarleyD; nobdysfool; Gamecock; suzyjaruki; ItsOurTimeNow
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

The Reformed truth is out there, sinator, though the world has worked overtime to diminish and obscure it. But it's the faith of the Apostles, of Augustine, of Luther, of Calvin, of Owen, of Warfield, of the Reformation itself.

"For many are called, but few are chosen." -- Matthew 22:14

"And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." -- Mark 13:20

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- II Thessalonians 2:13-14

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" -- Philippians 1:29

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." -- Romans 9:16;18

"For God hath not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." -- I Thessalonians 5:9

God ordained the names of the elect from before the foundation of the world. All the sheep entrusted to the Shepherd will be gathered from all nations and races and times to be brought safely home. No one is prevented from believing in Him. But all belief comes from God alone. None who believes in Him will be lost. Whatever God wills, comes to pass, for His glory. Or else He's not God, just a very large Customer Service Department.

It serves men's temporal purposes to say salvation is dependent on their wise and good earthly choices. That way men can control other men. "You have the power; give it to me."

But if salvation is dependent on nothing but God's eternal decree for His creation, determined by Him from before the foundation of the world, then who is really in control?

"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." -- Matthew 11:27

It just doesn't get much clearer than that.

Perhaps you might want to read something like this by Loraine Boettner, a righteous gentleman with a goofy first name....

THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION

FWIW, most every Calvinist on this site once believed every word you've written. Then things changed, by His grace.

If God wanted all men saved, all men would be saved. He's God; we're not. But we have His promise that Christ has paid the penalty for our sins, and that we are His. Rejoice.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33

240 posted on 06/29/2005 11:47:51 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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