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To: kosta50
Why are we culpable for being born in the darkness? We are simply given a broken cup that won't hold water and we can't fix it without God's help.

I'm not aware of anyone making us personally culpable for being born in darkness, orther than people such as yourself insisting on saying our terms mean something other than what we say they are intended to mean. The culpability is anological, not actual, and is indirect, in moral solidarity of will with Adam. We sinned in Adam to the same extent that Levi gave tithes to Melchizedek while in Abraham's loins. Thus the Holy Father's say things in all seriousness such as:

"Because we did not fast (when Adam ate the forbidden fruit) we have been turned out of the garden of Paradise." (St. Basil, Homily 1 on Fasting, 4)

"But inasmuch as it was by these things that we disobeyed God, and did not give credit to His word, so was it also by these same that He brought in obedience and consent as respects His Word; by which things He clearly shows forth God Himself, whom indeed we had offended in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. In the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, being made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other but to Him whose commandment we had transgressed at the beginning." (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.16.3)

... even though of course, we did not personally stand by Adam and disobey.

241 posted on 06/19/2005 10:13:02 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
The culpability is anological, not actual, and is indirect, in moral solidarity of will with Adam

Egyptians have sinned in pharoah, and Romans in Nero, and Germans in Hitler, and Chinese in Mao, and Soviets in Stalin, and Cambodians in Pol Pot...ultimately we have all sinned in all of them, and all carry the stain that our human race could do such things. It all comes down to guilt, Hermann.

I am saddened that humanity can do so much evil, but I don't for a moment assume their guilt. We are evil because we love ourselves and things of this world more than we love God. That is our wrong choice -- and for that we chould all feel guilty.

we had offended in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. In the second Adam.

Sounds to me that Irenaeus understood that our ancestral sin was wiped clean by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus for all mankind, by assuming the moral debt we owe so that we may be saved. What's left is only the consequence of that debt -- death; not guilt.

242 posted on 06/19/2005 2:30:42 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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