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To: Hermann the Cherusker
The culpability is anological, not actual, and is indirect, in moral solidarity of will with Adam

Egyptians have sinned in pharoah, and Romans in Nero, and Germans in Hitler, and Chinese in Mao, and Soviets in Stalin, and Cambodians in Pol Pot...ultimately we have all sinned in all of them, and all carry the stain that our human race could do such things. It all comes down to guilt, Hermann.

I am saddened that humanity can do so much evil, but I don't for a moment assume their guilt. We are evil because we love ourselves and things of this world more than we love God. That is our wrong choice -- and for that we chould all feel guilty.

we had offended in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. In the second Adam.

Sounds to me that Irenaeus understood that our ancestral sin was wiped clean by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus for all mankind, by assuming the moral debt we owe so that we may be saved. What's left is only the consequence of that debt -- death; not guilt.

242 posted on 06/19/2005 2:30:42 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
Sounds to me that Irenaeus understood that our ancestral sin was wiped clean by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus for all mankind, by assuming the moral debt we owe so that we may be saved. What's left is only the consequence of that debt -- death; not guilt.

I agree entirely with this caveat. While from the perspective of Christ, His sacrifice was sufficient to bring about forgiveness to all men, and did actually do so, from the perspective of man, it only brings about our forgiveness and sanctification at the time of its application by the means He intended - at Baptism. So those who resist Baptism resist Christ's healing, therefore they do not benefit from His forgiveness, because they would not, and so wrath remains upon them.

243 posted on 06/19/2005 5:21:35 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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